liver problems (any ideas)

[steve00]

At least your LFTS haven't worsened since 2006, and scan is reassuring. Glad ur under specialist. Try not to worry about it bud. Let me know how ur doing if he comes up with anthing else. I'm sure he's right and nothing serious.

[Tatyana]

Originally Posted by pecman

Hi steve and thanks for your concern, I have seen the specialist on the 17th of July and am STILL waiting on the results of another blood test he sent me for. He tested my blood presure and had a little poke around and said that all seemed normal.

After waiting 2 bloody hours to see the guy he just rushed me through and said that he isn't that worried about it and that it was due to steroids (yeah right) and that i most prob have a fatty liver and that there is nothing i can do about it

Yes you can.

It can be related to diet and quick digesting foods that spike insulin so simple carbs and whey protein.

Wait for confirmation before you change your diet.

He also said that if im still worried about it then the only other action will be a liver biopsy but he said there can be complications.

And the bad news is he went back through my records and found that when i ended up in hospital back in 06 after my comp that my liver ALT levels ect were the same back then??????

Ask them to screen you for macro ALT first before a liver biopsy.

If your doctor is not aware of this condition, one of the experts in the UK is Michael Fahie-Wilson, and one of the reference labs is Southend University Hospital, he could send your sample there.

If you ALT has been elevated that long, and it isn't that high, I wouldn't be surprised if it is this.

This is a non-pathological condition, immunoglobulins attach to the enzyme, making it 'big' (macro) so it is not cleared by the kidneys as quickly, therefore you have elevated levels.

There are quite a few enzymes and hormones in the body that have this happen to them, and it does confuse a lot of clinicians, and stresses out patients.

So no i am none the wiser and so it seems are the useless docs i have been dealing with, I am getting very down about this now and just wish someone could give me some frecking answers.

And yes mate i have had a liver scan done and that showed normal size which helped eliminate the cancer risk.

.................................................. ...

[pecman]

Hi Tatyana, Good to hear from you again and as always impecable advice, I must say the Shakes could play a big part in it but i am just fed up with the waiting now i have had to put my training on hold big time but as long as i get answers i dont mind to much as it is my health after all. He only suggested monitoring from now on but how long can you keep this up?

i think i will also ask my gp to get me tested for cholesterol again to see how that is doing as this was another concern.

Tatyana what do you think i should do in terms of the shakes ect should i wait for the levels to return completly to normal or face the fact that this will be my normal levels if i continue to take them?
And why if the shakes are fast digesting does it damage the liver more i would have thought it would have put less stress on it??

And the bigest question of all is what are you guys still doing up at this un godly hour? lol
I have an excuse i work night shifts...

Take care guys and thanks for all the advice

[Tatyana]

Originally Posted by pecman

Hi Tatyana, Good to hear from you again and as always impecable advice, I must say the Shakes could play a big part in it but i am just fed up with the waiting now i have had to put my training on hold big time but as long as i get answers i dont mind to much as it is my health after all.

Why are you not training? Exercise is always beneficial.

He only suggested monitoring from now on but how long can you keep this up?

Some people have things monitored for life.


There is a book that is somewhat related to this condition called Fat around the middle by Dr. Marilyn Glenville.

i think i will also ask my gp to get me tested for cholesterol again to see how that is doing as this was another concern.

Your cholesterol is not that high, but have it done if you have made modifications in your diet, and it has been three months.

Tatyana what do you think i should do in terms of the shakes ect should i wait for the levels to return completly to normal or face the fact that this will be my normal levels if i continue to take them?

Wait until you get a diagnosis of fatty liver, in the meantime, just google fatty liver and do some reading.

Things like 'crash dieting' or starvation can precipitate fatty liver.

The person who did your scan was a radiologist, not a doctor. While they know their job very well and they also know what people are commonly afflicted by, they don't have all of the pieces of the puzzle, your blood results, clinical presentation.


And why if the shakes are fast digesting does it damage the liver more i would have thought it would have put less stress on it??

It is related to the insulin, which the combination of amino acids and simple carbs elevate it more than carbohydrates alone.

The body will be getting rid of the glucose/nutrients as quickly as possible, and the liver is a major storage area for glucose.

Our bodies can turn everything into fat, and it isn't actually a high fat diet that causes fatty liver.

And the bigest question of all is what are you guys still doing up at this un godly hour? lol
I have an excuse i work night shifts...

Me too, I am on call in the hospital, so sorry if my posts are not making that much sense.

Take care guys and thanks for all the advice

.................................................

[Tatyana]

My liver ALT/SGPT serum level when i first went was 161 (should be 9-55) the other tests i have had have been 161-169-231 and it is now down to 187 u/l...

Your lab is still using SGPT as terminology?? That is a bit worrying, it is so old fashioned and out of date.

I think you are missing the significance of what I am saying about the macroenzymes.

As you have had elevated ALT for two years that you are aware of, and none of your other chemistries or labs are abnormal, and you are not suffering any major clinical symptoms besides fatigue, it is indicating that you have this.

If it is macro ALT, then there is absolutely NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU.

You do want to bring this up with your doctor or the consultant if they don't mention it.

[BRABUS]

Hi mate, hope all's going well and your not getting yourself down.

Im much in the same boat as you which ive mentioned on other threads regarding AST and ALT levels etc.

In a nutshell i see a Dr, not my GP, to get bloods done and he is an expert in the field and is continually doing research. Been going for years and all my readings--FBC's, HDL, LDL etcetc were always within normal range other than Urea and Creatinine levels, which were raised and is simply put down to my muscle mass and high protein intakes. He states as such it isn't a concern as we bodybuilders aren't exactly normal.

2006 I decided to compete and this resulted in my AST/ALT levels trippling. As this Dr isn't my GP he can only advise and suggested seeing my GP to get a liver scan which i did and that was perfectly normal with no fatty deposits or anything untoward. Infact it was a stomach scan and everything was ok.

Now my AST/ALT reading have dropped between shows but not to within normal levels, but the Dr isn't concerned as he know's from his expertise and research that this is normal for us and they do also get raised from heavy training too.

However having competed in May they again went up somewhat, which in reality does still concern me too abit.
Now what im getting at is after that show and subsequent rebound i decided i may compete in October which didn't in reality give me enough time for an effective off period so i decided to cruise on 1 shot/week for 5-6 weeks. But what i did do i also took Cycle Insurance by Genetic Edge during the cruise and after completion on 24/07/08 before hols/show prep i got bloods done again and have just had results.
Urea and Creatinine raised as expected, but my ALT/AST were the lowest they have been in 2 years despite not exactly being off and it was only 5-6weeks after maxing on a postshow rebound.

Can't exactly say it was the Cycle Insurance but it certainly looks that way as i have for years always took milk thistle and sometimes liv 52 which hasn't seemed to of helped.

On Monday i'm actually off to see a specialist to as a result of seeing my GP for my ' Wellmans check @ and her picking up the raised levels. Just going for piece of mind and to see what they say and do.

Hope the above helps in someway mate to settle your mind

[pecman]

I think you are missing the significance of what I am saying about the macroenzymes.

As you have had elevated ALT for two years that you are aware of, and none of your other chemistries or labs are abnormal, and you are not suffering any major clinical symptoms besides fatigue, it is indicating that you have this.

If it is macro ALT, then there is absolutely NOTHING WRONG WITH YOU.

You do want to bring this up with your doctor or the consultant if they don't mention it.

Thanks Tat for all the help and advice through this and will DEF be bringing the macro ALT up next time i go, Its amazing how you have put my mind more at ease than my own doctor ect, I just hope it is this then. I hope your shifts are not as dull as mine,lol

Can't exactly say it was the Cycle Insurance but it certainly looks that way as i have for years always took milk thistle and sometimes liv 52 which hasn't seemed to of helped.

On Monday i'm actually off to see a specialist to as a result of seeing my GP for my ' Wellmans check @ and her picking up the raised levels. Just going for piece of mind and to see what they say and do.

Hope the above helps in someway mate to settle your mind

Thanks for the post brabus that has actualy helped a lot and i have already looked up the cycle insurance and does sound like a very good idea.
i must say i tied liv52 and my ALT's went up even more something about them being herbal.
Please let me know if you wouldn't mind what your outcome is with the specialist, I would be very interested.

This may be more common in bodybuilders than people think but ignorance is bliss and nobody hardly ever gets bloods done.

[pecman]

ok finally got a letter back of the specialist stating that he is not overly concerned with the slightly high levels, he said that my auto antibodies were negative and ferritin was well within the normal range!!
Stating that the likeliest explanation is so called non alcoholic fatty liver disease.saying this is probably progressive in only a small proportion of patients, He wants to see me again 6 months!!!!

finally something promissing, Tat do you think it would be worth going back in 6 months as i would really like to do another show but that would mean going back on a cycle, as i have been off for approx a year due to this i was wondering if it would be worth waiting another 6 months and thats off gear not training.

It seems to me that training and diet could be the reason for this now.
Im not getting no younger(33) so taking years out from the comps and not getting anywere is doing my head in. 6 months feels like a lifetime. lol

[Tatyana]

I would go for it.

Just let your doctor know what you are doing, see if he will give you a couple of blood test forms so you can go in once a month for a liver function test.

I had some abnormal results recently as well, it is really stressful, even when I KNEW it was because I have more muscle mass and creatine supps.

In fact, as a learning exercise for the new doctors, I am going to be the case study for grand rounds this autumn, and we are going to submit a case study/letter to a few medical journals to get this idea, that bodybuilder and athletes do not fall into the 'normal' reference ranges to more GPs and medics.

I can see how it is really a dreadful experience when you have to rely on the knowledge of others.

I would follow up, just for your own peace of mind.

I am not positive, but I think the only way you can have a definitive diagnosis of fatty liver would be a biopsy.

Like I have mentioned, none of your labs are really all that out of order.

I think that the increased blood pressure from lifting would have the liver enzymes increase, just a normal physiological response.

[BRABUS]

Originally Posted by pecman

Thanks Tat for all the help and advice through this and will DEF be bringing the macro ALT up next time i go, Its amazing how you have put my mind more at ease than my own doctor ect, I just hope it is this then. I hope your shifts are not as dull as mine,lol


Thanks for the post brabus that has actualy helped a lot and i have already looked up the cycle insurance and does sound like a very good idea.
i must say i tied liv52 and my ALT's went up even more something about them being herbal.
Please let me know if you wouldn't mind what your outcome is with the specialist, I would be very interested.

This may be more common in bodybuilders than people think but ignorance is bliss and nobody hardly ever gets bloods done.

Well mate and Tatyana, just got back from the 'specialist' ( in what way im unsure ) and talk about freaking me out.
Had all the questions put to me and i have and have never had any of the symptons etc that would suggest renal damage or liver problems.

As previously mentioned earlier my Urea and Creatinine where elevated which is expected as im told from the private Dr specialst i see. Now my ALT reading that my GP has from beginning of July was 101. ( After Cycle Insurance whilst cruising its about 80 ) As it happens any bloods i had done via my own GP have been near comps so they have shown high as a result. This has been since the end of 2005.

This specialist suggests i have some liver damage which will become permanent if i don't stop my use. ( its worth mentioning here this is my only vice ). Said it wasn't worth a biopsy as liver scan was normal and theyre 100% sure why my ALT reading is high.

Now the other scary bit which i didnt expect is they beleive i had renal failure in July going by my readings of my CK and i beleive my Urea and Creatinine which he did accept was also from my muscle mass and heavy training. But it was the ck reading he kept mentioning, i beleive it was 181.I was strongly advised and had 3 vials of blood taken from me for a few more tests and to further compare---typical when im prepping for a show in October. I have to go back in December to.

Im going to have to speak to this other Dr as only last thursday i queried, as i have done previous, regarding my Creatine/Urea and been told there fine and expected and nothing to worry about. Also asked him about Kidney function and told i was within the normal range, howver CK wasn't mentioned. Is this something different i need to ask perhaps?

My heads a shed now for sure. What to do as we as humans can't all live like saints. My mates smoke and drink most weekends aswell as alot doing very little excercise and they as me appear fine but they havn't gone for any health checks as i do as like others here like to be healthy too. Now if they did, what would their readings be and what advice would they get???

Can anyone shed any light here??

[Tatyana]

So sorry to hear that, like I said earlier, I remember how stressed and concerned I felt when I saw my GP, and she was the 'nice' one who I was seeing for some girlie stuff.

It was really worrying even though I KNEW it wasn't an issue.

Ok, with regards to your 'abnormal' stuff:

CK is elevated anytime you do anything physical.

So if you trained heavy the day or two before you had your bloods done, your CK would be elevated.

Marathon runners have CK levels in the tens of thousands after a marathon.

This is a normal physiological response.

You can also have macroCK, it is one of the more common macroenzymes, my research project was on developing a method to have a quick routine screen for this.

Urea is from the breakdown of protein, so a high protein diet = high urea. It is also elevated when you are slightly dehydrated.

Creatinine, as he mentioned, is related to muscle mass. If he is using the eGFR calcuation to gauge renal damage, next time ask if he could plug your numbers into the Cockroft-Gault, or you can, here is some more information on GFR

http://renux.dmed.ed.ac.uk/EdREN/Han...DBKgfrest.html

Scroll down the page to check for the calculator (click on calculation 2).

Even when my levels were abnormal, when my consultant and I plugged my values into other GRF formulas (and once changed me to a male as I am closer to a 'normal' 70 kg male than I am to the female normal), I turned out normal.

It is tough for consultants to keep up with everything, we do try in the lab, but things do move quickly, this eGFR is quite new as well.

If you like, post up all of your lab results, and I can have my consultant take a look at them, he has done this before, not an issue.

He is a clinical biochemist, not a medical doctor, and there is a trend in the NHS to have some of the consultants in some areas be scientists, not MDs as the science is moving so quickly.

I am starting to think that the reference ranges for BBers are going to be seriously 'abnormal' in contrast to the general public.

[BRABUS]

Originally Posted by Tatyana

So sorry to hear that, like I said earlier, I remember how stressed and concerned I felt when I saw my GP, and she was the 'nice' one who I was seeing for some girlie stuff.

It was really worrying even though I KNEW it wasn't an issue.

Ok, with regards to your 'abnormal' stuff:

CK is elevated anytime you do anything physical.

So if you trained heavy the day or two before you had your bloods done, your CK would be elevated.

Marathon runners have CK levels in the tens of thousands after a marathon.

This is a normal physiological response.

You can also have macroCK, it is one of the more common macroenzymes, my research project was on developing a method to have a quick routine screen for this.

Urea is from the breakdown of protein, so a high protein diet = high urea. It is also elevated when you are slightly dehydrated.

Creatinine, as he mentioned, is related to muscle mass. If he is using the eGFR calcuation to gauge renal damage, next time ask if he could plug your numbers into the Cockroft-Gault, or you can, here is some more information on GFR

http://renux.dmed.ed.ac.uk/EdREN/Han...DBKgfrest.html

Scroll down the page to check for the calculator (click on calculation 2).

Even when my levels were abnormal, when my consultant and I plugged my values into other GRF formulas (and once changed me to a male as I am closer to a 'normal' 70 kg male than I am to the female normal), I turned out normal.

It is tough for consultants to keep up with everything, we do try in the lab, but things do move quickly, this eGFR is quite new as well.

If you like, post up all of your lab results, and I can have my consultant take a look at them, he has done this before, not an issue.

He is a clinical biochemist, not a medical doctor, and there is a trend in the NHS to have some of the consultants in some areas be scientists, not MDs as the science is moving so quickly.

I am starting to think that the reference ranges for BBers are going to be seriously 'abnormal' in contrast to the general public.

Cheers for that Tatyana, its giving me some peace of mind. I'll also see if i can get a copy of my readings.
Ive just remembered too with you mentioning the CK and marathon runners as thats what he also mentioned, but i think i had said earlier that mine was 181. That must of been something else. It was 1st 3000ish after a training session then having taken two days off it went down to a 1000ish. Sorry can't be more precise with the ammounts.

I'll be looking into that calculater too, ta

[pecman]

hi Tatyana,
thanks for the advice, you say i should go for it follow up still with the specialist but tell them what i am going to do. The trouble with this is that mr gp would frown apon this and give me a half hour lecture and probably cancel the appointment saying whats the point if your only going to keep abusing your liver.

I do feel fine now and like brabus said it does make you wonder what other peoples bloods would be like ie smokers and drinkers if they had it done.

i know guys in my gym that are on tons of gear and still go out drinking heavy at wkds.

some how i dont think my levels will ever be in the normal range until i am about 11st and dont train.
If i follow up and wait until next feb i just have a feeling it will be, well they are still slightly elevated so i will see you in another 6 months

[BRABUS]

Pecman,

I'd go for the show mate as the readings are not exactly outrageous. Im still planning on doing mine. Id also still tell your Dr as Tatyana suggests. They are duty bound to treat you. After all how many people do they treat ' DAILY ' for drink and smoking related illnesses and they still drink and smoke?
Although mine are about as yours and it does make you stop and think abit, the Dr specialist who i see privately says he isn't really concerned at this point and these readings can be expected.

I was just a bit freaked out about what the NHS consultant said about my CK, Creatinine, Urea readings and having a Renal failure in July despite no symptons and feeling great. Alos 'his' concern on Liver and my Test use. Got the usually advice, which in fairness he said he has to say.

[pecman]

Hi Brabus,
Thanks for the reply mate.I know what your saying but to me it seems abit daft to see the specialist again if i am going to do the show as my levels will rocket again. Then it will just confuse the fuk out of him and if i tell him what i have done i dont think he will be to chuffed, Well i know i wouldn't if i were him.
I think i will try that cycle insurance on its own and go and get some more bloods done and if that has an effect i will cancel the appointment next year and do the show.

The other thing with all this is i have a life insurance policy going through at the mo and they need to see your health records,So when they see this lot i can expect a hefty price rise,so just be warned peeps every thing you g