Creatine, whey, off-days, abs and flab - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

d77 · 07-03-2006, 05:28 AM

Quite a few odd little questions I have regarding my training and diet. Apologies for mixing things up a little.

I'm doing home work-outs on my upper body, and have been doing so for just over a year, with some success. I was previously quite large-framed, but without as much muscle as should be the case. Add to the fact that I've always had quite a bit of flab around my midsection; something which annoys me to this day!

Regarding the flab... I'm starting interval training as simply long aerobic work-outs seemed to kill my muscle growth. My aerobic exercise now consists of 10-mintue sessions on an eliptical trainer, but I'm unsure how best to place this in my schedule. Would it be better directly after my weight training (which I do every other day), or should I aim for off days? I'm thinking it's best to do everything at once and then give my entire body some rest, but I'm not sure if this "all at once" approach will impact muscle development.

The second point is whey protein. I'm currently taking 120g of concentrate per work-out day (20g before, 20g during, 80g in the 2 hours following). Given that I'm 85kg, is that about right? I've heard it said that 1.4g per kg is optimum. I've also heard it can be hard on the liver, so I'm a little concerned about packing my intake within those few hours, although I've read articles stating this is the most efficient time for uptake. Furthermore, should I be looking to take a similar quantity even on my off days?

Now, the creatine ethyl ester (capsules) is something I've yet to take, but my order arrives tomorrow. The recommended dose is 3g 45mins before work-out, and 3g 45 mins after. Is that optimum? A friend of mine mentioned it should be taken for no longer than a month at a time. Is this correct? If so, how long before resuming consumption?

My final question is ab-related. I hear stories of people working their abs everyday, but this seems to contradict the 48-hour break period between exercising muscle groups. Is this somewhat different for abs, or should I give them the same break I'd give other groups?

Any additional tips on how to ensure I'm able to trim the flab - whilst gaining muscle size - would be much apperciated. I'm concerned that the protein/creatine may hinder any toning/fat loss. I'm trying to eat extremely low fat, and I don't have that many meals per day - which is good for the flab, but bad for the muscle! I'm somewhat stuck over that one - I really can't manage 4-6 meals per day.

Many thanks in advance for advice/suggestions. Sorry for the rather convoluted read!

**big** · 07-03-2006, 08:33 AM

Ok, firstly you need to train legs if you want the best results you can get. Otherwise, not only are you robbing your entire body of the growth from stimulating a large muscle group, but you'll end up looking unbalanced long-term.

For your cardio, I would do it on off-days if possible. However, it's down to personal preference, so try it both ways and see which you prefer.

For your protein, just take around 60g of protein and 80g of fast acting carbs in a shake after your workout. Eat a proper meal 1-2 hours before your workout and (IMO) don't mess with taking in food just before or during your workout. There is no worry about your liver.

The way you're planning on using CEE is fine. I wouldn't bother cycling it personally.

For abs, train them like any other muscle group - focus on adding weight or reps each session. If you can add weight every 48-96 hours, great. If not, do it less frequently. You need to experiment here and find your own recovery ability.

You need fats in your diet. With a low fat diet, it's highly likely your body will NOT be efficiently burning bodyfat. Keep your fats moderate-to-high, keep your protein very high, and vary your carbs depending on whether you want to gain weight or lose weight. If you're unable to eat 4-6 meals a day, you won't get anything like the kind of results you could do btw.

Carnivore · 07-03-2006, 12:26 PM

abdominals are strange in that they recover quicker than any other muscle, so you can work them more often in that sense, i'll have to find the article as ive forgotten why they do this

d77 · 07-03-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big

For your protein, just take around 60g of protein and 80g of fast acting carbs in a shake after your workout. Eat a proper meal 1-2 hours before your workout and (IMO) don't mess with taking in food just before or during your workout. There is no worry about your liver.

You need fats in your diet. With a low fat diet, it's highly likely your body will NOT be efficiently burning bodyfat. Keep your fats moderate-to-high, keep your protein very high, and vary your carbs depending on whether you want to gain weight or lose weight. If you're unable to eat 4-6 meals a day, you won't get anything like the kind of results you could do btw.

Thanks for taking the time to help.

I was just reading your (rather excellent) thread on How To Grow, which seemed to suggest a daily intake of close to 400g of protein might be closer to the mark. Is there a particular reason for the disparity? I probably don't get very much protein out of my standard diet, as I really don't want to be eating hefty chunks of meat, which aren't going to help with trimming-down. Alas, this seems to be a big problem - do I eat like a hulk and just be big all over, or is there a happy-medium which will see the food aiding muscles, rather than waistline?

I'd stopped eating breakfast as I felt that gave my body more chance to use-up my fat stores, but I feel that might be impacting negatively on my overall growth. Having said that, would simply a bowl of cereal make much difference? Perhaps a protein shake early in the day? I have usually two medium-sized meals per day. Working 9-5 really doesn't allow for more than one meal during that time, and I don't like the idea of eating right before bed. I'm not aiming to be huge/in competition, just a good size.

I think possibly the answer is to eat more meals, but also hit the cardio a lot more, with short blasts.

Also regarding diet, I read in your thread that fish oils should be taken. I currently take a 1000mg dose of omega 3-6-9 oils each day. Should that be upped? The multivitamin tablet goes without saying.

Finally on diet, what would you class as a fast-acting carb?

**big** · 07-03-2006, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d77

Thanks for taking the time to help.

I was just reading your (rather excellent) thread on How To Grow, which seemed to suggest a daily intake of close to 400g of protein might be closer to the mark. Is there a particular reason for the disparity? I probably don't get very much protein out of my standard diet, as I really don't want to be eating hefty chunks of meat, which aren't going to help with trimming-down. Alas, this seems to be a big problem - do I eat like a hulk and just be big all over, or is there a happy-medium which will see the food aiding muscles, rather than waistline?

I'd stopped eating breakfast as I felt that gave my body more chance to use-up my fat stores, but I feel that might be impacting negatively on my overall growth. Having said that, would simply a bowl of cereal make much difference? Perhaps a protein shake early in the day? I have usually two medium-sized meals per day. Working 9-5 really doesn't allow for more than one meal during that time, and I don't like the idea of eating right before bed. I'm not aiming to be huge/in competition, just a good size.

I think possibly the answer is to eat more meals, but also hit the cardio a lot more, with short blasts.

Also regarding diet, I read in your thread that fish oils should be taken. I currently take a 1000mg dose of omega 3-6-9 oils each day. Should that be upped? The multivitamin tablet goes without saying.

Finally on diet, what would you class as a fast-acting carb?

The 400g of protein is your total daily amount if you're looking to gain lean mass (or maintain/gain lean mass while dieting down). You take around 60g immediately after your workout, and split the other 340g up throughout the day in 4-5+ meals. Protein is not likely to make you fat. It will speed up your metabolism and provide muscle sparing properties while dieting.

Breakfast is the most important meal of the day. By skipping it, your body will just shut down your metabolism and you'll end up starving your brain and vital organs of the nutrition it needs just to function since it sounds to me like you're eating just 2 medium sized meals a day and are burning that off in your training. You need to eat far more often.

Most of us on here work 9-5 or similar. We generally pack up our meals in advance and take them to work to eat during the day. Even taking a couple of protein shakes to drink during the day is better than nothing.

You will need far more than the 1g of EFAs in your diet that you currently have. Fats should be in the 80g/day+ ballpark for you.

IMO you need to read everything in the diet board. You are missing out on fundamentals that are causing you to make the same mistakes that most people make when dieting (i.e. not eating often enough, not eating enough protein and fats, skipping breakfast) which causes damage to your body and/or causes muscle wasting.

d77 · 08-03-2006, 12:35 AM

Thanks, Big. I'll head over to the diet boards now and read as much as possible.

Just one thing regarding the protein, if I were getting say just 200g per day from meals, would it be equal to top up with 200g of whey?

Cheers!

**big** · 08-03-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d77

Thanks, Big. I'll head over to the diet boards now and read as much as possible.

Just one thing regarding the protein, if I were getting say just 200g per day from meals, would it be equal to top up with 200g of whey?

Cheers!

Ideally you want to get as much of your protein as possible from whole foods. Anything you can't get from food, get from protein shakes. However, ideally you should use something slower acting than whey. Whey is awesome for immediately after you workout, but for the rest of the time it's absorbed too quickly for optimal use.

07-03-2006, 05:28 AM	#1 (permalink)
d77 Newbie Trainer Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Gym in Covent Garden, London Posts: 28	Creatine, whey, off-days, abs and flab Quite a few odd little questions I have regarding my training and diet. Apologies for mixing things up a little. I'm doing home work-outs on my upper body, and have been doing so for just over a year, with some success. I was previously quite large-framed, but without as much muscle as should be the case. Add to the fact that I've always had quite a bit of flab around my midsection; something which annoys me to this day! Regarding the flab... I'm starting interval training as simply long aerobic work-outs seemed to kill my muscle growth. My aerobic exercise now consists of 10-mintue sessions on an eliptical trainer, but I'm unsure how best to place this in my schedule. Would it be better directly after my weight training (which I do every other day), or should I aim for off days? I'm thinking it's best to do everything at once and then give my entire body some rest, but I'm not sure if this "all at once" approach will impact muscle development. The second point is whey protein. I'm currently taking 120g of concentrate per work-out day (20g before, 20g during, 80g in the 2 hours following). Given that I'm 85kg, is that about right? I've heard it said that 1.4g per kg is optimum. I've also heard it can be hard on the liver, so I'm a little concerned about packing my intake within those few hours, although I've read articles stating this is the most efficient time for uptake. Furthermore, should I be looking to take a similar quantity even on my off days? Now, the creatine ethyl ester (capsules) is something I've yet to take, but my order arrives tomorrow. The recommended dose is 3g 45mins before work-out, and 3g 45 mins after. Is that optimum? A friend of mine mentioned it should be taken for no longer than a month at a time. Is this correct? If so, how long before resuming consumption? My final question is ab-related. I hear stories of people working their abs everyday, but this seems to contradict the 48-hour break period between exercising muscle groups. Is this somewhat different for abs, or should I give them the same break I'd give other groups? Any additional tips on how to ensure I'm able to trim the flab - whilst gaining muscle size - would be much apperciated. I'm concerned that the protein/creatine may hinder any toning/fat loss. I'm trying to eat extremely low fat, and I don't have that many meals per day - which is good for the flab, but bad for the muscle! I'm somewhat stuck over that one - I really can't manage 4-6 meals per day. Many thanks in advance for advice/suggestions. Sorry for the rather convoluted read! Last edited by d77; 07-03-2006 at 05:33 AM.

07-03-2006, 08:33 AM	#2 (permalink)
big UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Beer me Posts: 5,264	Ok, firstly you need to train legs if you want the best results you can get. Otherwise, not only are you robbing your entire body of the growth from stimulating a large muscle group, but you'll end up looking unbalanced long-term. For your cardio, I would do it on off-days if possible. However, it's down to personal preference, so try it both ways and see which you prefer. For your protein, just take around 60g of protein and 80g of fast acting carbs in a shake after your workout. Eat a proper meal 1-2 hours before your workout and (IMO) don't mess with taking in food just before or during your workout. There is no worry about your liver. The way you're planning on using CEE is fine. I wouldn't bother cycling it personally. For abs, train them like any other muscle group - focus on adding weight or reps each session. If you can add weight every 48-96 hours, great. If not, do it less frequently. You need to experiment here and find your own recovery ability. You need fats in your diet. With a low fat diet, it's highly likely your body will NOT be efficiently burning bodyfat. Keep your fats moderate-to-high, keep your protein very high, and vary your carbs depending on whether you want to gain weight or lose weight. If you're unable to eat 4-6 meals a day, you won't get anything like the kind of results you could do btw. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-03-2006, 12:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
Carnivore Somewhere between depressed and suicidal Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: location, location Posts: 1,077	abdominals are strange in that they recover quicker than any other muscle, so you can work them more often in that sense, i'll have to find the article as ive forgotten why they do this __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-03-2006, 12:35 AM	#6 (permalink)
d77 Newbie Trainer Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: The Gym in Covent Garden, London Posts: 28	Thanks, Big. I'll head over to the diet boards now and read as much as possible. Just one thing regarding the protein, if I were getting say just 200g per day from meals, would it be equal to top up with 200g of whey? Cheers!