Low carb but no losing weight... - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

dannielchackas · 28-02-2006, 09:36 AM

First of all...

I've being on a low carb diet for many years, I lost over 100 pounds, felt great and I still am, I've been up and down in my weight, but for most of the years I've stayed @ 180 pounds vs 280 pounds. I don;t diet anymore, that means I don't go strictly low in carbohidrates, mostly I eat everything until I went to Mexico and I gained 25+ pounds of fat. With the years I've gone to the gym and lifted weights, I do know how to use most of the machines, however I never cared about "getting bigger" with modarate eating habits I was able to see a bit of results, which I was confortable with it, shirts fitted differently and looked better. Anyways in a recent trip to Mexico, I stayed there for 2 months and gained 25+ pounds now I am back to United Stated, and I am 200 pounds exactly, I was thinking...

Instead of going back to a strict low carb diet, I kinda tricked my lowcarb diet where I don't lose or gain any weight, I do eat sufficient fat and proteint mostly from chicken, or beef ( i work in a steak house LOL) , and most of the carbs comes from salads, berries (strawberries, blueberries and low sugar with lot's of antioxidants and so), and low sugar orange juice, 2% milk no lactose, high-fiber lowcarb tortillas over 12grams, low carb brad with a lot of fiber, cheses, I eat like 2 of those a day, and other carbs that don't contain too much or none sugar, that's what helping me not to GAIN or lose weight, I guess I'am not producing tooo much insulin, anyways... My question is

I know for fact that I do eat enough calories, because I don't lose weight, and I know i am not producing too much insulin, that's why I don't gain weight...

Can I do weight lifting and have results with this procedure?, I just went back to the gym after 8 mo. I did very very light so I don't get a bad SORE, right now I am sore but is not bad...

Need advice!! thanks!

Tatyana · 28-02-2006, 10:14 AM

How do you know you eat enough calories? I am a big fan of seriously checking out the 'reality' of your diet. Have you done the record EVERYTHING you eat for a week and figure out total cals, grams of proteins, carbs and fats? And from that work out the percentages?

Otherwise you are just guessing, seriously, and most people are SHOCKED when they do this. First time I did it, I was veggie and found out that my diet was 40% fat!

Going to post a link to another thread after this, you may want to do some homework!

I am NOT a fan of low carb diets, they do seem to work quite well initially for losing weight.

I AM a big fan of sorting out a 'diet' that is easy to maintain and a healthy way of eating for life!

Putting on more muscle makes it easier to keep the fat off, so weight training is essential, and also, to get rid of fat, cardio cardio cardio!

Tatyana · 28-02-2006, 10:20 AM

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/diets-nutrition/11769-southcoast-girl-diet-good-posts-low-carb-diet-fat-loss.html

Check this link. Daniel are you in the States? I think that freaking Atkins diet has brainwashed the lot of you, just like the low fat fad reined king for AGES! And look how well that has worked out in sorting out the obesity epidemic in N America.

CARBS are not your enemy. Crap food is! Like low carb bread! Check the ingredients list!

WHole natural foods! You are not going to like how they taste initially if you have been eating a fairly high fat, high salt and sugar processed food diet, but it is a PROCESS to learning to eat healthy, not an overnight quick fix for a short period of time and then a BIG rebound!

Vegetables are so missing from your diet! Tortillas? Corn or wheat flour, usually mixed with oil, correct? Probably crap oil as well!

Clean up the diet! What do you eat for breakfast?

**hackskii** · 28-02-2006, 08:30 PM

Well, I am a fan of low carb dieting.
It does work well.
Tatyana is right about the weights and having more muscle being able to lose more fat, this is true.

Sure some carbs are your enemy, the atkins diet is sound and I have read the book.
Most of your carbs tho are not preferred except the berries and some of the other stuff.

Stick to your fruits and vegetables and you will be ok.

About 1/3 of the American population has problems with carbs and you probably are one of them.

Mexican food is mostly carbs and they love their beans and rice so this might be where you slipped some.
Booze too will effect this picture.

Id drop those breads and tortillas, stick with the more natural whole foods like the vegetables and fruits and stick to the low GI ones.
You will be alright.

Controlling insulin is your first defense in not gaining fat.

It is possible that your overall calories might be high so have a look at that.

**Pscarb** · 28-02-2006, 08:53 PM

Tatyana just because you are not a fan of Low Carb diets does not mean they don't work as they do...not only in the short term.

i don't get on well with lots of carbs and even in the off season my diet has a max of 300g of carbs per day which is not a lot.....and when dieting for a show my low carb days are as low as 50-0g of carbs...

so to some people Carbs are the enemy.....

bdc · 28-02-2006, 09:54 PM

my two pennies worth;

recent studies have shown that ketogenic diets worked because the fact the people were in a calorie deficit while on them, due to less variety of food i would imagine.

ketogenic diets could possibly increase the risk of osteoporosis, ketones cause the kidneys to become more acidic, calcium gets released from bones to buffer the acidity

lack of carbs obviously increases the risk of dietary fibre deficiency which within itself could cause any number of problems ranging to increased risk of CHD and cancer

i dont like fad diets because they suck in a lot of people who wouldnt know better, e.g. the kelloggs drop a jean size diet, as long as you adhere to the bowl of kelloggs cereal for breakfast and lunch (?) or whatever meals it is, you are going to lose weight- which is basically the way they market it. it doesnt alert people to the fact that they cant eat anything they want around these meals, if you managed to consume massive snacks putting you in a calorie surplus, you arent going to lose weight. along with the fact that kelloggs cereals are generally severely refined and although low in fat and 'sugar', the molecular structure of what it uses is broken down so much it might as well be sugar by the time you are eating it.

pscarb has pointed out that some people dont react well to them however, i believe that if he says he doesnt react well to carbs then he doesnt, and knows his body well enough to make that judgement, but a lot of people out there who arent carb sensitive take the ketogenic approach because it doesnt stipulate anything other than low carbs and allows certain freedom within its parameters. many people out there on these diets will be eating a lot of processed meat containing high levels of saturated fat and trans fat but because they are in the deficit and are losing weight it seems successful, very few will be doing it sensibly

**Pscarb** · 28-02-2006, 10:04 PM

i must point out that there is ahuge diffrence between ketagenic diets(Atkins) and a low carb approach to dieting.....

bdc · 28-02-2006, 10:07 PM

would the guy posting be able to tell you the difference?

**hackskii** · 28-02-2006, 10:15 PM

First it is not calorie deficit so to speak but controlling insulin and taping into your own fat for fuel which is the whole point of dieting.
If you want to lose weight you have to use some method of fat loss and in my opinion this is one of the fastest.

I know the diffrence.
Keto diets or ketosis is when you drop your carbs to achieve ketosis.
This is where the body burns ketones and Free Fatty Acids instead of glucose or glycogen.
At this point the body is using your own fat for fuel.

They are healthy and they do work.
Read the book if you want answers instead of comming to your own self thought interpritation of the medical aspects of the diet.

Sorry bud no link to cancer and fiber in he diet, just came out about a week ago on that subject. No proof and just speculation.

Oh and CHD?
Lower lipid profiles were on ketosis.

Is ketosis bad?
They used to treat epilepsy with ketgenic diets about 100 years ago and had kids on it for years with very good effects.
Now they use medicines for epilepsy and not ketosis.

Nobody stays in epilepsy forever, again if you read Atkins book then you will know this instead of giving your side of the argument with no merrit.
Sorry but I have problems with people giving their opinions and state them in a way it appears as fact.
Id rather not argue fats with out as this I feel will be a waste of my time.
I know this issue well and am willing to debate it with you and the other dude that is missinformed as well, on a thread all by itself.

**Pscarb** · 28-02-2006, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdc

would the guy posting be able to tell you the difference?

which guy?

and could you tell me the diffrence without looking in your book....:rolleye11

bdc · 28-02-2006, 10:23 PM

i wasnt going to reference the points i made, but obviously the studies are going to be backdated compared to the ones you mentioned, i would be interested in reading up on that if you fancy posting it down. To get a little bit pedantic in the way of my stubborn nature, if you reread my second and third points i was very careful about not stating them as fact, as it is speculation which common sense points towards

ketogenic diets could possibly increase the risk of osteoporosis, ketones cause the kidneys to become more acidic, calcium gets released from bones to buffer the acidity

lack of carbs obviously increases the risk of dietary fibre deficiency which within itself could cause any number of problems ranging to increased risk of CHD and cancer

i didnt with the first one because i was stating the findings of a recent study. I could argue that your point was a bit contradictory, you say you dislike people stating points as if they are fact, and did the same thing yourself, although yours might be the most common knowledge you are aware of to this date, its hard to say anything is fact as newer studies with different findings are coming out all the time.

It came across as a bit childish but i am sure you will respect the points i was making

bdc · 28-02-2006, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pscarb

which guy?

and could you tell me the diffrence without looking in your book....:rolleye11

the guy who asked originally, i didnt think it was necessary to distinguish the different types of carb depletion for his benefit in all honesty.

saying this is coming from a book is a little bit petty though is it not? i was in dietary discussion a few hours ago and have hardly come up with anything in-depth

**hackskii** · 28-02-2006, 11:11 PM

Anything in depth?

I just answered why he might possibly be not doing so good on the low carb.
There are other factors too that might be happening like cortisol.
But Carb depletion is also carb cycling which does do a number of things like rev up the thyroid and get the body into tricking it back into fat loss.

so there was some depth, like his choice of carbs too.

Dude you are giving your opinion like there is some weight in what you say.
I have done keto diets and am on one right now.
I just dont like the way you were posting like it was fact.

Ok, let me rephrase that.
Dude you are wrong in what you say.
It is wrong in you assuming and using in a fact stating way.
I just started another post.
I welcome your thoughts on this debate.
Bring some info and not just speculation, opinions are welcome but say it is your opinion then.
Get your books too as I am sure they are not axactually right in this area too.
This stuff is very isolated and they wont teach this to you in your nutrition class.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/12957-who-thinks-30-fat-your-diet-unhealthy.html

AussieMarc · 01-03-2006, 08:08 AM

As Tat has said.. I am not a fan of fad diets either. Low carb diets for one, sure they may work for a bit but as soon as you're off them they tend to have a recoil effect. This is my gun analogy of a low carb diet - when you pull the trigger the bullet shoots off in one direction.. Think of the bullet as fluids. You lose a lot of fluid in your body causing the initial weight loss. However with that has the recoil.. Think of the recoil as fat. Remember, instead of carbs you are eating protein and fat. Your body can only store 500g's of carbs as glycogen at any one time. That is the first thing your body uses to produce energy since it is the most efficient. However fat has unlimited storage on your body.. It is just stored as fat, nothing else. If you cut the carbs out, sure your body will be looking for other places to get the energy from. Hence - the fat will initially be burnt off. But so will muscle. The best way to burn fat IMO is to eat a balanced diet (everything in moderation) and train your cardiovascular fitness. Good cardiovascular fitness actually burns fat when you are doing nothing, as your heart is stronger and requires more energy to work and your metabolism increases.

So the summary? Eat everything in moderation and train in cardiovascular fitness to increase your metabolism. (of course, don't leave strength training out though).

My apologisies if that post sounded technical :/

AussieMarc · 01-03-2006, 08:10 AM

Oh and in respect to that, low carb diets make you feel like absolute **** anyway. Really drained with a lack of energy.

28-02-2006, 09:36 AM	#1 (permalink)
dannielchackas Newbie Trainer Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 10	Low carb but no losing weight... First of all... I've being on a low carb diet for many years, I lost over 100 pounds, felt great and I still am, I've been up and down in my weight, but for most of the years I've stayed @ 180 pounds vs 280 pounds. I don;t diet anymore, that means I don't go strictly low in carbohidrates, mostly I eat everything until I went to Mexico and I gained 25+ pounds of fat. With the years I've gone to the gym and lifted weights, I do know how to use most of the machines, however I never cared about "getting bigger" with modarate eating habits I was able to see a bit of results, which I was confortable with it, shirts fitted differently and looked better. Anyways in a recent trip to Mexico, I stayed there for 2 months and gained 25+ pounds now I am back to United Stated, and I am 200 pounds exactly, I was thinking... Instead of going back to a strict low carb diet, I kinda tricked my lowcarb diet where I don't lose or gain any weight, I do eat sufficient fat and proteint mostly from chicken, or beef ( i work in a steak house LOL) , and most of the carbs comes from salads, berries (strawberries, blueberries and low sugar with lot's of antioxidants and so), and low sugar orange juice, 2% milk no lactose, high-fiber lowcarb tortillas over 12grams, low carb brad with a lot of fiber, cheses, I eat like 2 of those a day, and other carbs that don't contain too much or none sugar, that's what helping me not to GAIN or lose weight, I guess I'am not producing tooo much insulin, anyways... My question is I know for fact that I do eat enough calories, because I don't lose weight, and I know i am not producing too much insulin, that's why I don't gain weight... Can I do weight lifting and have results with this procedure?, I just went back to the gym after 8 mo. I did very very light so I don't get a bad SORE, right now I am sore but is not bad... Need advice!! thanks!

28-02-2006, 10:20 AM	#3 (permalink)
Tatyana My name is EARL Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: On my bloody bike doing cardio Posts: 3,406	Calculate calories for day http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/diets-nutrition/11769-southcoast-girl-diet-good-posts-low-carb-diet-fat-loss.html Check this link. Daniel are you in the States? I think that freaking Atkins diet has brainwashed the lot of you, just like the low fat fad reined king for AGES! And look how well that has worked out in sorting out the obesity epidemic in N America. CARBS are not your enemy. Crap food is! Like low carb bread! Check the ingredients list! WHole natural foods! You are not going to like how they taste initially if you have been eating a fairly high fat, high salt and sugar processed food diet, but it is a PROCESS to learning to eat healthy, not an overnight quick fix for a short period of time and then a BIG rebound! Vegetables are so missing from your diet! Tortillas? Corn or wheat flour, usually mixed with oil, correct? Probably crap oil as well! Clean up the diet! What do you eat for breakfast?

28-02-2006, 08:30 PM	#4 (permalink)
hackskii Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 22,649	Well, I am a fan of low carb dieting. It does work well. Tatyana is right about the weights and having more muscle being able to lose more fat, this is true. Sure some carbs are your enemy, the atkins diet is sound and I have read the book. Most of your carbs tho are not preferred except the berries and some of the other stuff. Stick to your fruits and vegetables and you will be ok. About 1/3 of the American population has problems with carbs and you probably are one of them. Mexican food is mostly carbs and they love their beans and rice so this might be where you slipped some. Booze too will effect this picture. Id drop those breads and tortillas, stick with the more natural whole foods like the vegetables and fruits and stick to the low GI ones. You will be alright. Controlling insulin is your first defense in not gaining fat. It is possible that your overall calories might be high so have a look at that. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

28-02-2006, 08:53 PM	#5 (permalink)
Pscarb UK-Muscle Moderator and NABBA Champion Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 9,456	Tatyana just because you are not a fan of Low Carb diets does not mean they don't work as they do...not only in the short term. i don't get on well with lots of carbs and even in the off season my diet has a max of 300g of carbs per day which is not a lot.....and when dieting for a show my low carb days are as low as 50-0g of carbs... so to some people Carbs are the enemy..... __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Nutrition is your greatest anabolic agent; everything else is just the icing on the cake

28-02-2006, 10:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
Pscarb UK-Muscle Moderator and NABBA Champion Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 9,456	i must point out that there is ahuge diffrence between ketagenic diets(Atkins) and a low carb approach to dieting..... __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Nutrition is your greatest anabolic agent; everything else is just the icing on the cake

28-02-2006, 10:14 AM	#2 (permalink)
Tatyana My name is EARL Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: On my bloody bike doing cardio Posts: 3,406	How do you know you eat enough calories? I am a big fan of seriously checking out the 'reality' of your diet. Have you done the record EVERYTHING you eat for a week and figure out total cals, grams of proteins, carbs and fats? And from that work out the percentages? Otherwise you are just guessing, seriously, and most people are SHOCKED when they do this. First time I did it, I was veggie and found out that my diet was 40% fat! Going to post a link to another thread after this, you may want to do some homework! I am NOT a fan of low carb diets, they do seem to work quite well initially for losing weight. I AM a big fan of sorting out a 'diet' that is easy to maintain and a healthy way of eating for life! Putting on more muscle makes it easier to keep the fat off, so weight training is essential, and also, to get rid of fat, cardio cardio cardio!

28-02-2006, 09:54 PM	#6 (permalink)
bdc Newbie Trainer Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 64	my two pennies worth; recent studies have shown that ketogenic diets worked because the fact the people were in a calorie deficit while on them, due to less variety of food i would imagine. ketogenic diets could possibly increase the risk of osteoporosis, ketones cause the kidneys to become more acidic, calcium gets released from bones to buffer the acidity lack of carbs obviously increases the risk of dietary fibre deficiency which within itself could cause any number of problems ranging to increased risk of CHD and cancer i dont like fad diets because they suck in a lot of people who wouldnt know better, e.g. the kelloggs drop a jean size diet, as long as you adhere to the bowl of kelloggs cereal for breakfast and lunch (?) or whatever meals it is, you are going to lose weight- which is basically the way they market it. it doesnt alert people to the fact that they cant eat anything they want around these meals, if you managed to consume massive snacks putting you in a calorie surplus, you arent going to lose weight. along with the fact that kelloggs cereals are generally severely refined and although low in fat and 'sugar', the molecular structure of what it uses is broken down so much it might as well be sugar by the time you are eating it. pscarb has pointed out that some people dont react well to them however, i believe that if he says he doesnt react well to carbs then he doesnt, and knows his body well enough to make that judgement, but a lot of people out there who arent carb sensitive take the ketogenic approach because it doesnt stipulate anything other than low carbs and allows certain freedom within its parameters. many people out there on these diets will be eating a lot of processed meat containing high levels of saturated fat and trans fat but because they are in the deficit and are losing weight it seems successful, very few will be doing it sensibly

28-02-2006, 10:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
bdc Newbie Trainer Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 64	would the guy posting be able to tell you the difference?

28-02-2006, 10:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
hackskii Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 22,649	First it is not calorie deficit so to speak but controlling insulin and taping into your own fat for fuel which is the whole point of dieting. If you want to lose weight you have to use some method of fat loss and in my opinion this is one of the fastest. I know the diffrence. Keto diets or ketosis is when you drop your carbs to achieve ketosis. This is where the body burns ketones and Free Fatty Acids instead of glucose or glycogen. At this point the body is using your own fat for fuel. They are healthy and they do work. Read the book if you want answers instead of comming to your own self thought interpritation of the medical aspects of the diet. Sorry bud no link to cancer and fiber in he diet, just came out about a week ago on that subject. No proof and just speculation. Oh and CHD? Lower lipid profiles were on ketosis. Is ketosis bad? They used to treat epilepsy with ketgenic diets about 100 years ago and had kids on it for years with very good effects. Now they use medicines for epilepsy and not ketosis. Nobody stays in epilepsy forever, again if you read Atkins book then you will know this instead of giving your side of the argument with no merrit. Sorry but I have problems with people giving their opinions and state them in a way it appears as fact. Id rather not argue fats with out as this I feel will be a waste of my time. I know this issue well and am willing to debate it with you and the other dude that is missinformed as well, on a thread all by itself. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by hackskii; 28-02-2006 at 10:18 PM.

28-02-2006, 10:23 PM	#11 (permalink)
bdc Newbie Trainer Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 64	i wasnt going to reference the points i made, but obviously the studies are going to be backdated compared to the ones you mentioned, i would be interested in reading up on that if you fancy posting it down. To get a little bit pedantic in the way of my stubborn nature, if you reread my second and third points i was very careful about not stating them as fact, as it is speculation which common sense points towards ketogenic diets could possibly increase the risk of osteoporosis, ketones cause the kidneys to become more acidic, calcium gets released from bones to buffer the acidity lack of carbs obviously increases the risk of dietary fibre deficiency which within itself *could cause* any number of problems ranging to increased risk of CHD and cancer i didnt with the first one because i was stating the findings of a recent study. I could argue that your point was a bit contradictory, you say you dislike people stating points as if they are fact, and did the same thing yourself, although yours might be the most common knowledge you are aware of to this date, its hard to say anything is fact as newer studies with different findings are coming out all the time. It came across as a bit childish but i am sure you will respect the points i was making

28-02-2006, 11:11 PM	#13 (permalink)
hackskii Super Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 22,649	Anything in depth? I just answered why he might possibly be not doing so good on the low carb. There are other factors too that might be happening like cortisol. But Carb depletion is also carb cycling which does do a number of things like rev up the thyroid and get the body into tricking it back into fat loss. so there was some depth, like his choice of carbs too. Dude you are giving your opinion like there is some weight in what you say. I have done keto diets and am on one right now. I just dont like the way you were posting like it was fact. Ok, let me rephrase that. Dude you are wrong in what you say. It is wrong in you assuming and using in a fact stating way. I just started another post. I welcome your thoughts on this debate. Bring some info and not just speculation, opinions are welcome but say it is your opinion then. Get your books too as I am sure they are not axactually right in this area too. This stuff is very isolated and they wont teach this to you in your nutrition class. http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet-nutrition-info/12957-who-thinks-30-fat-your-diet-unhealthy.html __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

01-03-2006, 08:08 AM	#14 (permalink)
AussieMarc UK-M's Token Aussie Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 1,488	As Tat has said.. I am not a fan of fad diets either. Low carb diets for one, sure they may work for a bit but as soon as you're off them they tend to have a recoil effect. This is my gun analogy of a low carb diet - when you pull the trigger the bullet shoots off in one direction.. Think of the bullet as fluids. You lose a lot of fluid in your body causing the initial weight loss. However with that has the recoil.. Think of the recoil as fat. Remember, instead of carbs you are eating protein and fat. Your body can only store 500g's of carbs as glycogen at any one time. That is the first thing your body uses to produce energy since it is the most efficient. However fat has unlimited storage on your body.. It is just stored as fat, nothing else. If you cut the carbs out, sure your body will be looking for other places to get the energy from. Hence - the fat will initially be burnt off. But so will muscle. The best way to burn fat IMO is to eat a balanced diet (everything in moderation) and train your cardiovascular fitness. Good cardiovascular fitness actually burns fat when you are doing nothing, as your heart is stronger and requires more energy to work and your metabolism increases. So the summary? Eat everything in moderation and train in cardiovascular fitness to increase your metabolism. (of course, don't leave strength training out though). My apologisies if that post sounded technical :/ __________________ - Marc To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by AussieMarc; 01-03-2006 at 08:10 AM.

01-03-2006, 08:10 AM	#15 (permalink)
AussieMarc UK-M's Token Aussie Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: QLD, Australia Posts: 1,488	Oh and in respect to that, low carb diets make you feel like absolute **** anyway. Really drained with a lack of energy. __________________ - Marc To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.