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Old 04-02-2009, 01:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

so, i stayed up all night,

in one hand caffeine pills 200mg each, other journals, bio books, and prof on speed dial, any friends of mine know once i get a bee in my bonnet i have to understand

As an open minded guy i conceed a few points as i will show but some i just dont see.

For starters lets leave "overtraining" as a maybe for the sense of good debate, like a court of law, so both sides casn be put foward. I myself will call it the overtraining syndrome as i believe it is a syndrome with many variables.

Many say it is primarily to do with the CNS (central neervous system), some say its muscular , some endocrine and some lumphatic. Others say its the mismanagement of intensity, nutrition or peptide/aas useage. Many claim its the accumulation of all of those.serotonin levels, tryptophan levels etc.Lets take a little looksee...

Primarily observed in athletes as a whole i feel the overtraining syndrome is characterizedby metabolic changes, reduction in the athletic performance,and the response to the training in healthy individuals, incidenceof bruises and viral and bacterial infections due to the fall in
the immunological resistance, alterations in the mood, constant
fatigue, etc.
This set of signs and symptoms causes chronic fatigue
in the individual like Nytol has posted. and etiology of such signs and symptoms involves the imbalance of the cerebral neurotransmitters, as well as a decreasein the serotonin levels (5-HT), that by its turn is derivedfrom the tryptophan, an aminoacid delivered by a high-protein diet.

This is particularily uselful in the subject of bodybuilding as we are known to have the highest protein requirements in the athletic world.

It is possible that the energetic metabolism, which is secondary to
the endocrine changes, be changed in the overtraining syndrome,
and thus, consequently affecting the fatigue as well.

I have observed that deficiencies or imbalances in
the neurotransmitters and neuromodulators can be caused by severe
or prolonged stress like Tall has expressed in his examples. Try a 1 rep max deadlift and increase it every day for 2 week. I do feel muscular stresses would override the cns downgrading which would occur due to the whole body nature of the exercise.

I feel the individual themself has many of their own inherent factors which alter their experience or lack of in this syndrome.
Tall has highlighted that a high number of competitions, monotony of the training ie. 1 rep maximums on DL, high expectations of outcomes, the individual him or herself (wether they have a strong alpha personality or are a shy demure personality),structure of the personality, preexisting
medical conditions such as the flu or a viral infection,, environmental factors (altitude, temperatureand humidity), and even the lack of professional guidance as Nytol shows with the example of him and James taking more time off.

These are all related to the overtraining syndrome, I feel even with so many symptoms a definitive diagnosis and thus criteria for overtraining has yet to be met. I can recover very quickly. Even when my business was not doing well, i split from my gf and ate little i could still lift Personal bests and train intensely, assisted at the time. So the use of AAS's is now thrown in as an added variable to offset the aformentioned symptoms.
The biochemical-metabolic mechanism for the syndrome is yet to be discovered i feel. I have changed my views of last night to a degree.

Im all for a long post but i will summarise the factors i see which govern this syndrome stress.

It can be differentiated in eustress,(negative stress)or positive stress, characterized by the mobilization of every physicaland spiritual strength in a status of excitement causing feelings of joy, satisfaction and happiness.
Jw himself has noted this in many posts.
When we entertain a new stimulus or cycle for instance we temporarily make ourselves in a superman because of the positive stress.The feelin of euphorai many feel on Dianabol. Then as Tall explained there is distress, or negativestress, that represents a damaging situation to the body, whichcan be acute whenever it is intense, and it is installed in a quite
short period of time, or chronic, whenever it is gradually installed
for a longer period. Again easily categorised by the supramaximal training of a powerlifter.

The enalagy that very intense but prolonged maximum training can lead to the athlete feeling almost a sense of fear of increasing lifts day on day,week on week.

The term stress means the status generated by the perception of either the positive or negative stimulus. In my own example,i find the stimulus of a new Personal best or goal very motivating an i feel stress itself is not a symptom for myself in the syndrome. engative or positive feedback form environmental factors only ever makes me push harder.
One that many of us hinted on is the neuroanatomic aspects of the
response to the stress.

This is very well researched inthe animal’s defense reactions that
come to answer to the dangers found in its environment. Different
cerebral structures are involved in different defense strategies,
depending on the level of the threats perceived by the individual.

In a gym environment, this can be seen as a new bar loaded up with a personal best. Then the subject is monitored to see how they psychologicay and neuroanatomically cope with this.

Trials with animal models has evidenced that in potentially dangerous
situations, the structures involved would be the septo-hippocampal
system and the tonsils. These structures receive information
gathered by different sensorial systems, thus creating a
representation of the outside world. This provides us with feedback in the sense of how we as gym trainers view the outside world and inside the gym environment pre training.

The septo-hippocampal system initially performs the conferee
function, comparing the sensorial data synthesis at that moment
with those predictions that take into account the memories stored
in several spots of the Central Nervous System (CNS), as well as
the action plans generated by the prefrontal cortex.

Whenever thereis coherence between both representations, the septo-hippocampalsystem continues to exert its conferee task. However, wheneverit is detected a discrepancy between what is expected and
what happened,(tall hinted at this using me. i expect to sense a positive lift each day i train but this may not be the outcome.) the septo-hippocampal system starts in generatingan inhibition of the behavior, an increasing vigilance level, drivingthe individual’s attention to possible sources of danger.

Whenthe danger signs are clear but still are far away, the tense immobility
reaction is quite common, whose neural substrate is probably
the ventral portion of the periaqueductal gray matter (PGM) of the
mesencephalon

The PGM seems to be the major structure responsible by the
fight and escape schedule that is analogically related to the panic
attacks. Now you all may argue this but from my standpoint i think that overtraining (if i can classify this in a whole account) is a sense of fight or flight especially on the onset of a train cycle. Many tailor a cycle of training stimulus very much along the line of fear factors.

"oh no i cant do max deads a week i'll overtrain. 3 tricep exercises is too much i'll die!" and so forth.

I feel not enough of us try to contradict the PGM enought. Athletes are coached to fight when their instinct is to flight.The PGM, together with the hypothalamus schedulesthe behavior, hormonal and neurovegetative manifestations of thedefense reactions.

It was also verified that the stimulation of theserotonergic way, which is originated in the medial nucleus of the Raphe, and preferably innervates the septo-hippocampus, determinesthe behaviorist inhibition that characterizes the defense.SO we see already that the overtraining stimulus is very much chemically routed, and induced by psychological factors.

The “Central Fatigue Hypothesis” connects
the signs and symptoms of the syndrome to similar symptoms
than those that appear whenever there is an increasing concentration
in the cerebral neurotransmitter serotonin.
serotonin is a monoamine neuro transmitter.

A hydroxy-group at carbon 5 of the carbon skeleton of L-tryptophan without a carboxyl-group gives serotonin its descriptive chemical name, 5-hydroxytryptamine.


In the cetral nervous system, serotonin plays an important role as a neurotransmitter in the modulation of anger, aggression, body temperature, mood, sleep,human sexuality, appetite,and metablolic rate. Even stiulates sickness, well vomitting. It has been
demonstrated that the cerebral serotonin level depends on the free
in the plasma tryptophan that increases whenever the free fatty
acid concentration increases. Due to the increase of the free fatty
acid in the plasma levels during the resistance training, this theory
proposes that the levels of cerebral serotonin increase before the
presence of the overtraining. Unless you have acces to a lab its difficult to keep track of this but i added it because i feel its the major factor in overtraining.

The overtraining syndrome or disorder is defined as a neuroendocrine disorder (hypothalamohypophysial)that results from an imbalance between the demand of the exercise and the functional capability, and it may be aggravated by an inadequate recovery, thus causing a decrease in the sportive and athletic performance, But despite the main reasons i have stated which seems quite an extended list, up to this moment there are not yet quite established criteria.M aybe due to the lack of a culture
implying in a systematic evaluation routine for atheletes and definately bodybuilders..

I have noted the malfunction or imbalance in the autonomous nervous system was presented as the reason for the signs and symptoms of
the syndrome There are several but not well evidenced theories
on the origin and pathophysiological alterations of the overtraining
syndrome. The alterations in the noradrenergic, serotoninergic
and/or dopaminergic activity in the brain (specifically in the
hypothalamic and suprahypothalamic regions) can cause hypothalamic
disorders, but the function of the alterations in the neurotransmitters
during the syndrome is yet unknown.

I think Tall hinted at this and can maybe shed some more light on it..

There is also lackof sufficient evidence for the hypothalamohypophysial-adrenal axle(HPA) alterations, as well as for the alterations in the hypophysial sensitivity.
A quite intensive training period during a training program seems to reduce the adrenocorticotropic (ACTH) and the growth hormone concentrations.

Is this relevent for athletes using 10+ius of synthetic or pharma grade Hgh, or the various peptide use. I argue the overtraining sydrome is greatly reduced if the ACTH and the hgh levels are highly elevated due to supramaximal doseages used by some athletes. (JW i do not mean u one bit )

The overtraining syndrome is defined as a neuroendocrine disorder,
in which the serotonin seems to have an important role in
the physiology, along with other neurotransmitters. But the study
needs to be deepened together with nutritional aspects related to
the tryptophan and the aminoacid levels of the ramified chain that
can be involved in the central fatigue. I said to Nytol i double my nutrition and peptides around very intense lifting cycles. This is touched here due to the aminoacid and tryptophan levels in the body and the nitrogen state . A negative situation coupled with neuro and sero enduced stress and an athlete indeed may experience this syndrome.

My opinion is that overtraining as a syndrome is reletive (in laymens terms) to how you approach your training from a psychological perspective, how well you provide your body with relaxing stimulus, peptide and aas useage and how you cope physically and psychologically after each session.

Aplogies if some bits are worded badly.
I can usually relate most but some conflicted with my own beliefs so i was careful not to load it with my own predetermined views.

Hope this makes for interesting debated.
The development of the overtraining sydrome- here at uk-m
apologies also i typed this on word pasted over and its gone all odd,

Last edited by dutch_scott; 04-02-2009 at 01:43 PM. Reason: came out from word document weird
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:42 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

You should be careful staying up all night mate, lack of sleep may lead to overtraining
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:43 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldozer View Post
You should be careful staying up all night mate, lack of sleep may lead to overtraining
Yeah! Definitely bad for CNS...assisted or not
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

lol @ bulldozer

fair play to you Dutch, that is one hell of a post, will read when I have time later. Reps
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:44 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

sleep when im dead, i believe with synthetic means we can by powernapping induce what 8 hours sleep would anyway, discuss....
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:47 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch_scott View Post
sleep when im dead, i believe with synthetic means we can by powernapping induce what 8 hours sleep would anyway, discuss....
FFS Von Swole don't start another one, not yet....
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

tagged for later lol
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:51 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

hahaha, yes i know,

would like to say thanks to all those who take the time to debate and offer rebuttles and knowledge, its helping me alot.

dutch
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Old 04-02-2009, 01:53 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

Powernapping is good.. Not so good at work though..

Just popping to the loo.....
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:08 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

very interesting mate well above my academic level so im guna sit and look most of this stuff up.
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

I believe the amount of sleep we need is very debatable. People always recommend 8 hours a night...........Bollocks.

Ronnie Coleman has about 5 and a half - 6 hours maximum a night, and who can say he doesn't know what he's on about.

The human body is an amazing thing, it adapts to all kinds of situations. If you stress your body (weather it be through physical stress, or mental stress) to its limits, you will feel like sh*t for a while but over time your body will adapt to the stress and become acustom to it.

If you have five hours of sleep every night for a week you will feel very tired during the day, have a lack of energy, feel very lathargic basically. But over time, say 2 or 3 weeks, your body would adapt to the lack of sleep and get used to only having 5 hours.

Do any of you wake up to an alarm the same time every morning for work? Say 7.00am? If so how many of you find yourselfs waking up a couple of minuets before the alarm some mornings at say 6.57am? Its your bodies internal clock that wakes you up. Your body is used to waking up at that time everyday therefore its used to the amount of sleep you usually have.

If you started waking up at 6.00am but still going to bed at the same time every night (therefore having an hour less sleep every night) you would feel crap during the day for a few weeks and then you would adapt and get used to it.

Anyone agree with this? Or have experience of this?

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Old 04-02-2009, 02:13 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

That response was not to the original topic but to Von Swole's powernap comment BTW

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Old 04-02-2009, 02:19 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

i agree with you about overtraining. i only believe in undereating or not resting enough. i dont believe in overtraining
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:42 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

ugh, reps for work done, nice post, tho i mostly disagree

gah, cant rep ya yet, put that on hold
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Old 04-02-2009, 02:48 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: CNS THE DEBATE RAGES ON part 2.psychological and pysiological

Quote:
Originally Posted by dutch_scott View Post


My opinion is that overtraining as a syndrome is reletive (in laymens terms) to how you approach your training from a psychological perspective, how well you provide your body with relaxing stimulus, peptide and aas useage and how you cope physically and psychologically after each session.

i agree with you on this and i think that as everyone is diferent that it is impossible to say whether overtraining does/doesnt exist. What may kill me may be ok for another guy.

I think the psychological aspect is ignored by too many people. We all have days where we dont feel like training. The diference is somepeople skip the day and use ovetraining as an excuse to rest where as somepoeple drag their sorry **** into line and get to the gym knowing they gonna have a good workout.

saying that - i do always feel tired and down the day after a serious leg session..................

didnt understand the rest of what you said so will leave it there
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