Rowlf

Demetrius:

Do I entice you? Do I speak you fair?
Or rather do I not in plainest truth
Tell you I do not nor I cannot love you?

Helena:

And even for that do I love you the more.
I am your spaniel, and, Demetrius,
The more you beat me I will fawn on you.
Use me but as your spaniel: spurn me, strike me,
Neglect me, lose me; only give me leave,
Unworthy as I am, to follow you.
What worser place can I beg in your love -
And yet a place of high respect with me -
Than to be usèd as you use your dog?

A Midsummer Night's Dream
Act II Scene I

Interesting, no? In a way, this thread's been running for hundreds of years, then, at least. This is especially interesting as when Shakespeare was writing, women were not allowed on the stage. Instead, all the womens parts were played by young men and boys, and often in Sheakespeare's work we can see glimmers and references to the fact that what is said by the women about being women takes on a deeper meaning as we know them to have been played by men. This deeper meaning is often a comment by the men of the day (i.e. Shakespeare) about their society's view of women generally. Rereading the above section with Helena being played by a man reveals at least some of this.

Peg

I do hear what you are saying, Rafe. I'm just commenting objectively for the sake of discoverery in discussion about how men and women will see things, as we all know, from a different point of view.


Maybe the holding of hands is not insecurity then, maybe the woman is walking with a prized trophey?

I will disagree with you about loving instantaneously. It can and does happen for a woman. It is built into a woman's design to love completely and totally which also can be construed by a man as being insecure, clingy, and needy. Time with her would determine if it was true love or that clingy neediness.

Experience with men who take advantage of the love condition a woman out of loving instantaneoulsy, but they do love this way.

I think you are seeing love from the point of view which is to first win the man's respect (after he calms his lust) and then he will love the woman.
Women first love and then the man must win a woman's respect.

Peg

Gotta love Shakespeare!

Is it not the loyalty of a dog that men respect?
Helena is insigtful for knowing a man so well.
Her love is so deep that she would subjegate her "self" to be this loyal to the man.

Why is it that men abuse this loyalty of women or at least do not fully appreciate it the same way they appreciate the loyalty of a man?

Dogs do turn on their master, don't they? Why?

I like the Song of Solomon, personally.

Rowlf

I'm not sure that men 'respect' the loyalty of the dog, rather dogs and men both have a tendency towards a natural 'pack' pecking order, so both feel comfortable with a servant/master relationship - not that the man would ever consider the dog in any way 'equal' to him, so I suppose it depends on how we define the term 'respect' in this particular instance.

Contrast the nature of the cat, so oft beloved by women - it does what it does, takes what it wants and gives what it wants when it wants.

I'm sure there's something quite profound in that somewhere, but I think I need to think about it for a while... answers on a postcard, please!

Flexing my brain now...:lift:

darkstar

I said it befor listen up to PEG. You'll win the heart of ever lass.Not that you should have that goal.
Youll treat women they way only they know they want to be treated.
INSIGHT my bratha.
Thanx Peg and all who take the time to expound.

hackskii

I talk to her all the time, she helps me with my fears.
She is a very sensible lady.

Gridlock

Peg is an amazing women who has given me deep insight on a range of things from relationships to religion.

However I don't think human beings actually know or realise what they really desire or what will make them happy - otherwise we would all be on cloud9 all day.

What the average woman thinks she wants in a man and what she is actually attracted to are often polar opposites.

I teach this for a living - trust me.

darkstar

"What the average woman thinks she wants in a man and what she is actually attracted to are often polar opposites."
Here in lies the problem of the non -self actualized woman/man.
Basically Everybodys problem to some degree.

darkstar

One more thing , we will never be on cloud 9 all the time. We are just to humane for that. IMO.

Peg

Wow, guys.

Thank you for your compliments.

Actually, Gridlock, if these things that I speak are acted upon in a relationship, it is possible to be on cloud 9 24/7.

The challenge lies within the selfish/selflessness duality. It will get blurred and then time must be taken to sort it out and clarify. When each learn to stop and ask the other, "What may I do for you, today." It takes the focus off of ourselves and puts it on to the other.

It is easy to think of the other person when the relationship begins. After all we are also being selfish in this because the other person is meeting our own selfish need.

The key to cloud 9 is to always stay thinking of the other person first.
I will say that this is easier for the woman than the man, at least it use to be, because her design is to love which is a natural giving of oneself.

When both become selfish then there is no longer giving and only taking and this is when a relationship has conflict and becomes rocky.

Women will always be attracted to strength. There are many different expressions of strength. Strong body, strong mind, strong convictions, strong integrity, strong heart, strong self confidence, etc.. So, Gridlock, what may seem like a polar difference may not be so different when scrutinized from a different perspective.

Simply put, humanity is not on cloud 9 usually because some perceived self need or want is not being met.

Life is not stagnate. A woman can be attracted to one or several strengths to begin with and then as the relationship grows other strengths may become more attractive to her and take on more significance than the things that first attracted her.

It is the journey of relationships to discover the subtle selfishness we all have and learn how to recognize its potential distructive power in a relationship.
When both partners are looking out for each other's back then self will be safe, secure, satisfied, and on cloud 9. True love will seek the higher good of the other first and battle the selfishness to take before permission is given to take.

Such is always easier said than done in the battlefield of relationships.

Rowlf

I think part of the problem, too, is the way we assume relationships ought to be, rather than the way they are in our own experience - for example our experience of relationships in films, telly, or in books. While I accept that this has always been so (the vistorians were masters of this kind of literature) and humans seek out stories with 'happy endings', too often things are portrayed without the full nature of the hardships that accompany such journeys.

A silly example: You never see anyone on the Starship Enterprise go for a poo, do you? At some point, one supposes that Kirk must have walked into the loo as Dr McCoy was coming out after he had done a big stinker. Pehaps McCoy always does big stinkers, and it's an ongoing niggling friction between him and the rest of the crew.

We never see these little niggles, but the truth is that when relationships hit rocky times, the things like this that once we might have laughed about become a thorn in our side. How much better would it be if, at least a little more frequently, we saw the wider range of human relationships expressed in everyday terms (not necessarily pooing, though...)?

I'm not against fantasy in storytelling, you understand. It's just as important as any other way of depicting relationships. I'd just like to see a fuller range of experience shown for us to compare ourselves to.

Gridlock

Amazing and spot on.

My spiritual beliefs focus around everthing that this post alludes to. I follow a life philosophy laid out by one of my friends, that basically strips hinduism and Buddism down to the core, the key to life and happiness I believe:

1) The elimination of desire, the ability to find contentment in what you have.
2) The service of others before yourself "What may I do for you today"
3) which leads on from 2 - Karma.

That is it, simple/

Keyser Soze

There are two problems with that;

1) They probably use transporter technology instead of old-fashioned excretion, thus saving cubicle space and waste disposal facilities, I imagine it all gets beamed into the ether;

2) McCoy is a Doctor - he'd be the first to get his gut flora checked out at the first whiff of trouble (pun very intentional).

But I take your point.


Keyser

Rowlf

LOL @ Keyser

Peg

Rafe I agree with you whole heartedly about the little niggling things.
Most movies always end right when the marriage begins.

That example just cracked me up!!! Thanks. It was a nice way to end my work day.

Does it not become niggling because selfishness demands it so?
It is at these niggling times when love and thought for other should take precedence with the discipline of the mind and reason. Who said love was an emotion? I say that true love is displayed with a disciplined mind that chooses to not let the emotional demands of selfishness control. Sometimes all that is needed is just good manners and common courtesy.