Bulldozer

As your an ectomorph bud i reckon you should only train twice a week tbh.

More often than not, less= more. Especially for people with your type of build mate.

Have a look at big "how to grow" thread. also if you wanted a good book to read buy FURTHER BRAWN and BEYOND BRAWN. by stuart McRobert.

They are a very good read and specialise in guys like yaself who struggle to put weight on.

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/general-a...-how-grow.html

I know it may be hard to get your head round at first, but trust me you dont have to spend endless days and hours in the gym in order to grow.

I only train twice a week

__________________
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. ~ Anatole France



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

invisiblekid

The diet looks fine mate - if that is indeed what you are eating.

3 or 4 days per week is loads. Train each body part once per week if going to failure. Look at a single or dual factor routine if you don't want to go to failure.

Edit: Bulldozer hit on a very good point - you are an ectomorph. Stick to compounds and mass builders. I'm somewhere in the middle of an endo and a meso. So I have to spend more time in the gym - which I don't mind tbh, so I understand when it's hard to hear someone say spend less time in there.

__________________
Most bodybuilders are actually insane. Albert Einstein defined insanity as "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".

Bulldozer

Thanks IK.

Airforce if you hit me up with a pm i think i have a copy of brawn i can email you. ( i dont think its the whole book, but got lots of info and its free )

If your interested.

Same goes for anyone else :beer1:

__________________
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. ~ Anatole France



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

mrmasive

Bumpo to read later :crazy:

__________________
"The greatest test of courage is to bear defeat without loosing heart"

B:120 S:200 DL:230 @ 85kg

airforce1

cheers for the replies! that is what im eating but maybe i should up some portions on my dinner a bit more.

im guna start doing 3 days a week like what was suggested at the start of the thread....chest n shoulders, legs, back n arms.

@ bulldozer - cheers for that mate, it wont let me PM as im new tho, i did get ur msg before just wouldnt even let me reply!!! any chance you could up it to rapidshare or something and post the link??

airforce1

ive just realised something.... in my diet im not having all those 3 meats by the way, just one!? if any1 got confused...

Bulldozer

I will see what i can do , but im a bit of a computer spaz

The Pm only said sorry for the hijack mate. So you didnt miss anything

This is a great board and threads dont normally end up like this, so just wanted to personally apolgise.

__________________
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. ~ Anatole France



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Five-O

Bloody hell!

First things first, this post has gone far too much off track, as in the original post, I must ask, you say your 8st 10lbs? or so, and your eating what you are and not putting weight on, are you really being honest with what your diet looks like, or could you expalin your portions? is the tuna, a can of tuna or just "some " tuna thrown on some bread, b/c seriously at your height/weight ratio I would find it hard to beleive your not gaining weight with what your eating.


ToxicToffee, well, I wouldn't expect much else from someone off MT tbh, sorry mate but your posting answers to new members questions that are far too difficult to understand in all fairness, I think you seem to go overboard on the "trying to sound impressive bit"


All this thread needed was a simple bread and butter answer/reply.

__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

airforce1

im 5ft 7, 8 stone 13.5 apparantly now. not sure how its gone to that(i had a pair of joggers on n thats it)

i eat wholemeal bread with one can of tuna put into two sandwiches. then have one at a time. should i be having a tin in each sandwich?

erm...dinner its a chicken breast or steak or cod/salmon with rice or pasta or potatoes(new or jacket) and veg(brocolli and baby corn)

the meal replacements are pretty hefty on the calories i think. just off the myprotein site. pretty tasty-would recommend!

Pscarb

well i have just read this thread and i cannot believe how it has gone off topic....

Airforce1 TT is correct the reason you are not gaining weight is because you are not eating enough calories FACT......this in itself could lead to over training which in itself could be part of the reason you are not gaining weight.

As long as you are eating enough calories more than you are expending then you will gain weight if you are consuming less than you are expending you will lose weight.....it really is that simple....

I will say that i have high regard for TT's knowledge no matter what he has achieved on a bodybuilding stage, i do also agree with Big that there is no room for taking the mick out of avatar pics and will not be tolerated......

Airforce1 make a note of everything you eat for 1 week jot down sizes and weights of all you eat then go onto a nutrition site like www.fitday.com and work out the calories you eat this way you will know what you need to change.

On a last note Adam please refrain from telling other members to shut up try to express your self a little better please.

__________________

Bulldozer

There you go bud, i dont claim to be an "expert" on diet, but just try and give out some real world advice that you can follow mate.

If i was you mate i wouldnt worry about eating over clean, i bet your metabolism is like a raging furnance!! You need to really bump up your calories! so a bit of junk food wont hurt IMO.

Just keep eating more food until you see the scales starting to go up about half a lb or so a week.

Milk can be a good bulking aid as long as you can tolerate it, lots of people are lactose intolerrant.

A great bulking shalke i use is 100 grams oats, 2 scoops whey, pint of milk, spoonful of peanut butter and a banana all mixed up in a blender. It dont taste too bad and has a shed load of calories in it!

Hope some of that helps you out bud

__________________
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. ~ Anatole France



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

ALake

This is just my opinion but what worked for me as someone who really really really struggles to put on weight.

Simply put I eat platefulls of chicken, potatoes, rice and vegetables. And lots of peanut butter sandwiches.

Usually I have a bowl of cereal, a double peanut butter sandwich and then 4 meals of chicken/potatoes/rice/vegetables (+ 2 whey shakes) I eat about 10 chicken breast things a day. I used to have weightganer shakes with that but dropped it because they are bloody useless.

From 16-20 I put on about 6 pounds. I am 21 now and in 3 months I have put on over 2 stone.

I am still a noob but this is what happened to me. I dont know any nutro toxins thingy whatevers but I just eat ****loads of GOOD food.

toxictoffee

ok shall we go for laymans terms?

your diet is underpinned by heavily marketed powders yet lacks the fundamentals

what are the fundamentals (the basics is fundamentals is being too "me trying to sound impressive")

you have minimal veg
minimal solid lean meat
minimal n3 fats, that is oimega fat (EPA/DHA) fat - that is oily fish
you have minimal cholesterol, add eggs
add lean red meat
nobody grew off shakes
its micornutrient sp****
it lacks quality protein, tuna is low quality, add red meat and whole eggs
add oily fish
dont go overboard with n6 fats, omega 6s from nuts and seeds, add them but balance with 3s
start eating food, not drinking shakes

as for the comments, i am not going to respond to them as i could sit here all day ripping people to bits, i am not here for that, so lets move forwards

below is something i wrote for another site, you maybe able to take something from it...

Becoming a huge Cnut, or at least a bigger one than before
By toxictoffee

By logging onto this site I assume, one, you have prior experience of training and, two, have the desire to become a huge ****! With that in mind I have knocked up an ‘all encompassing’ article to enable maximum possible muscle gains and minimal fat gains over a 12 week period This is merely one sample plan, not definitive but will yield solid lean gains for the natural or enhanced trainer

As a personal trainer and avid weightlifter I appreciate the role of strength training and sports specific routines but my ultimate love is developing ‘pretty muscle’ This is the notion of simply adding size and mass, clean honest lean tissue. Call it what you want, beef, meat, whatever takes your fancy, at the end of the day many people simply train to increase their muscle mass and aesthetic appeal. This choice ultimately determines the training, diet and supplementation used to achieve this goal.

Whilst some routines promote both strength and size the two never really go hand in hand to their full capacity as lower reps promote strength and power with some hypertrophy whilst a higher rep range will promote significant increases in hypertrophy and minimal power and strength. The notion of being a jack of all trades is of little interest to me and is certainly outside the scope of this article. I am not for one moment suggesting you wont add lean tissue on low reps, you just add more on moderate to higher reps. What I propose below is a simple 4 day split along with a diet and steroid protocol* for the intermediate trainer to pack of some solid mass whilst staying relatively lean. If you want a bit of strength and a bit of size plump for something by Bill Starr or Mark Rippetoe. This is not it what the article is about. This is about show muscle, minimal strength and no functional purpose, simply a balanced muscular physique that is pleasing on the eye. Full body routines with low reps will not yield optimum development on the show muscles to the extent a 4 day split with higher reps will.

I have quoted this passage from Stuart McRobert and believe it is very fitting for this piece

“I have great respect for any drug free person who can lift huge weights, but because I have a strong bias towards appearance and aesthetics, I see appearance first and lifting performance second. If appearance is heavily compromised I have little interest in strength achievements.”

Stuart McRobert, Beyond Brawn

Disclaimer

*I don’t suggest you use AAS

So we are clear on that! I don’t want a host of emails from people suggesting I screwed their health up or any similar wild accusations!

Let’s get on to the training. I am not going to bore you with science but there are a couple of points I would like to clarify. There are plenty of solid routines out there which will pack on size. This is one of many but is tried and tested. Some others will work equally well in the framework outlined below, many won’t

Low repetition weight training simply does not result in absolute muscular size due multiple mechanisms such as early CNS failure which inhibits the increase of GH and testosterone associated higher rep sets and does not stimulate sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. The TUT (time under tension) is simply not enough to induce maximum growth when doing lower reps and is more suited to power and strength athletes. In short if you are doing below 5 reps in an attempt to get big, I suggest you change to the rep structure to the one outlined below or similar (8/8/8, 10/10/10) if you are simply training for aesthetics. Various pyramiding and drop sets can also be factored in if you wish especially on certain muscle groups
This is my informed, practised choice, I'm not looking for a debate as its been plastered all over the internet for years and there is plenty of research out there if you wish to find it
The rep range 8-12 will be employed for 3 sets per exercise, 4 exercises per day. 8-12 reps are perfect for stimulating hypertrophy in type 2a and 2b muscle fibres. For more reading on this, Google Brad Schoenfeld or William Kraemer and you can spend hours on the science behind reps and set structure. Muscles display higher composition of Slow twitch fibres have also been catered for in the plan with higher rep schemes and longer TUT to stimulate growth accordingly.

Here goes

Day 1
Flat bench press 12/10/8
Incline DB press 12/10/8
Weighted wide dips 3 x RF (reasonable failure)
Standing barbell military press 12/10/8

Day 2
Deadlifts 12/10/8
Weighted chins 3 x RF (reasonable failure)
Seated cable row 12/10/8
Barbell shrugs 12/10/8

Day 3
Barbell squats 12/10/8
45 degree leg press 12/10/8
SLDLs 12/10/8
Calf raises 20/20/20

Day 4
Standing barbell press 12/10/8
Super setted with
Skull crushers 12/10/8

Alternating DB curl 12/10/8
Super setted with
Heavy push downs 12/10/8

There we go, a simple 4 day split, reps are higher than you may think especially on Deadlifts and squats. As state before this is not the only method of training but suitable for pure hypertrophy. Personal preference for tempo is 4-0-2-0 but that’s something you can play with to suit, but appreciate TUT is key here, no jerky movements, no jackhammer reps, slow and controlled, with full ROM (range of motion) on both eccentric and concentric phase.

Oh yeh, Have at least one day off between day 2 and three! I don’t want the emails saying you can’t recover!

The split may look like this
Monday = day 1
Tuesday = day 2
Thursday = day 3
Friday = day 4

Or

Monday = day 1
Tuesday = day 2
Friday = day 3
Saturday = day 4


Progression is absolutely paramount…I cannot stress this enough. You have to increase poundage during the 12 weeks to ensure progressive overload. Without this you will not grow. If this means getting some small .5kg plates, so be it, increase the weight

Document all weights lifted and make the smallest progress possible

Example being
Weighted dips

Week 1 - 5kg additional weight
Week 2 - 7.5kg additional weight
Week 3 - 8.5kg additional weight
Week 4 - 10kg additional weight

And so on and so on

The same goes for barbell pressing and squatting, Deadlifts and curls. There are many ways to progress. I prefer micro loading each session as above. The plan is designed for a 12 week period initially and increases are expected each week

PCT Post cycle therapy (see later instructions) or the end of the 12 weeks may bring a de loading week or an alteration of the training protocol with the suggestion of 3 day splits, GVT or 4 day upper lower methods being employed.

Does cardio play a role?

Yes it can. Light cardiovascular work can be incorporated on days of with a steady bike ride, power walk or by using the cross trainer or ergonomic rower. No crazy sprinting long runs or similar are though suggested.

How should you eat?

In short, eat big and eat clean. I am not one for sloppy bulks, eating anything that isn’t nailed down and ingesting Trans fat and sugar laden foods in an attempt to get big. I believe there is only a certain amount of lean tissue to be gained a week and beyond this level its pure fat being laid down and more work to get through when cutting. Eat in a calorie surplus but not one which is so far beyond your requirements you end up with a sloppy bulk.
The basics are lean protein, quality carbohydrates (CHO) and a range of fats to include predominantly essential fats (EFA's) and other good poly and monounsaturated fatty acids
There should always be a positive nitrogen balance to ensure adequate growth. As they say, keep the glass full but don’t let it overspill too much. The meals will be structured to be occur every 2-3 hours and will generally include a micronutrient rich portion of fruit or veg. shakes can be included for those who are busy at work or on the road although the more solid meals the better.
The diet is simply a base plan opposed to the calories you require to grow. That part is for you to decide in relation to stats, lifestyle and activity levels. If you are not gaining, up the portion size. If you are getting fat, drop them. Its not rocket science, simply pick up the structure and play with portion size. Many trainers love facts and figures and require an exact protein intake figure. I suggest a minimum of 1.5g per lb of bodyweight unless you fall either end of the body fat spectrum, then base it on lean weight. CHO intake is very individual and will depend on lifestyle. Active people will require more, sedentary people less. Fat intake is also a well debated topic. There is a requirement for this much maligned macronutrient regardless of what the media suggests. Again i’m not one for suggesting numbers but a baseline of 60g ED would be a minimum. As stated before, eat, monitor and adjust accordingly

Sample diet

07:30 100g oats or muesli in skimmed milk
6 egg whites with 2 whole eggs fried in small amount of olive oil

10:00 wholemeal pita bread
175g chicken or tuna
Salad selection
10ml flax oil

12:30 75 g of basmati rice
175g chicken or tuna
Veg selection
Small piece of fruit

15:00 protein blend shake (35g of powder)
2 weetabix
1 banana
Small teaspoon peanut butter
Blend in water

17:30 75g wholemeal pasta
8 egg whites fried (add veg in
Such as spinach, onions, tomatoes and broccoli)

18:30 weight training (drink water throughout)

19:30 40g whey protein isolate
30g dextrose
30g maltodextrin
5g leucine
Blend in water

20:30 150g lean red meat
2 sweet potatoes
Veg selection

22:30 protein bled shake (40g)
5 fish oil caps

This is the sample diet. As stated, the portion size will change in relation to the factors also listed above. Its big, it’s clean and will promote anabolism for those who subscribe. This would be aimed at a mildly active office worker. If you are slugging bricks for 10 hours a day on a building increase the calories to suit.
Do not exclude the veg, do not leave out the essential fats and supplement with at least 2-3 litres of water a day. If you wish to use creatine, you can do. Pre or PWO is fine and 3-5g is adequate depending on creatine type
If you train at different times, get up earlier or go to bed later, use your head and swing the meals to suit. PWO is obvious enough and is also eliminated from the plan on off days for obvious reasons. A small snake of nuts or fruit could replace this for those who are peckish in this period. Hunger though is one issue that should not occur on a bulking diet.

Supplements to use

In all honesty the supplements market is saturated with over hyped bull**** and snake oil that young kids and uneducated trainers love. I have never been a fan of spending vast amounts of money on them and neglecting diet as a result. The use of creatine is advocated on this diet for those who have researched, and as a result, found it suitable for their needs. The BCAA (branch chain amino acid) Leucine is also included PWO (post work out) as studies have shown it to be both insulinogenic and enhancing protein synthesis in the initial PWO phase. These are both very cheap supplements from bulk suppliers and do not have to be used, they do help though. Do not for one moment think you can hold a **** diet up with supplements. This is no the case. The plan stated is to be adhered to on all fronts. If employed in this form it will work. If you decide to re invent the wheel and come up with a square shaped piece of crap, it aint gonna roll is it?

The use of alcohol and recreational drugs.

I abhor the notion of both alcohol and rec drugs being used during steroid cycles and have an equally dim view on their use by anyone looking to maximise gains. There is plenty of literature on both and their place in bodybuilding. The conclusion is simply that they don’t have a place in training in my book if you want to be the best you can be. Beyond the odd social drink any excessive consumption of alcohol will be detrimental to your progression as a natural or enhanced trainer.
Lethargy, lowered test levels, increased oestrogen, empty calories, liver disease, the inhibition of lipolysis, dehydration, lowered protein synthesis, blocking absorption of electrolytes and micronutrients, blah blah blah. The list is endless. You are pushing your body in a positive direction, these substances are pulling you back the other way.
The issues are magnified when using oral steroids which are potentially hepatoxic and the additional work for the liver on higher consumptions of alcohol makes this a no brainer in my book.
Alcohol or gear, Get big or stay small. Your call
PCT is not the time to pick up the pint either. Same rules apply as fair as i’m concerned.

The AAS

Before we get going on this I would like to, for the third time, suggest the use of steroids is not personally advocated. This is an informed decision you should make after adequate reading.
So, now we have the disclaimer over, let’s look at a base course. The tried and tested first course for a new steroid user would simply consist of 10-12 weeks of an injectable testosterone. Enanthate of Cypionate is a good choice and will be injected twice a week to give 500mg. Some trainers will gain on 250mg EW but for the purpose of this article the base level will be stated as 500mg.
With most enanthate products being 250mg/ml this equates to two single 1ml shots each week for 10-12 weeks followed 2 weeks later by post cycle therapy (PCT). In short, two weeks after your last jab you run PCT

The protocol for PCT will be Novae and or Clamed. Some will suggest the use of HCG (Human Chronic Gonadatrophin) towards the end of the cycle to kick the ‘balls back into action’ in anticipation of PCT. This again is for the user to decide upon after adequate reading and self assessment. Some users may employ HCG if testicular atrophy is noticeable whilst others will simply employ the nolva and clomid protocol.

The cycle looks like this

Weeks 1-12 500mg test enanthate/cypionate EW
Week’s 14-17 nolva or clomid protocol

Nolva or clomid can be used as a PCT protocol or a combination of the two. Samples below show the dosing required which will start 2 weeks after the last injection

Nolva (Tamoxifen)
Day 1 – 100mg
Day 2-11 – 60mg
Day 12-21 – 40mg

Of if using clomid:

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate)
Day 1 – 300mg
Day 2-11 – 100mg
Day 12 -21 – 50mg

Both drugs can be orally administered in one session due to their long half life.
If the user wishes to combine the drugs after the first day of 200mg of Clomid and 40mg of Nolva an intake of 50mg of clomid and 20mg of nolvadex will be commence for the following 3 week period

For those wishing to employ HCG the suggestion is to administer either intramuscular or subcutaneous injections in the days leading up to your last shot. For most this wont be required but for those doing there is a requirement to finish the HCG at least 7 days before PCT is commenced
A dose of 500-1000 iu ED for 10 days to two weeks would be advisable.

Eating during PCT
Eating must continue in a similar vain to ensure new tissue is held onto and to allow an environment for your body to recover and restore HPTA functioning (get your balls back working) and ensure homeostasis is restored (pre cycle)
Endogenous test is low at this point and dietary measures can aid the journey to full ‘recovery’ as the exogenous test has been withdrawn from the body.

Do not eat like you want to cut, cutting comes later down the line. Eat, recover, keep new muscle, and get your nuts working. Some trainers ay wish to employ creatine, tribulus and other OTC (other the counter) supplements to aid recovery. These are not a substitute for either nolvadex or clomid but may aid recovery to some extent and hold onto lean tissue gained from the 12 week cycle. Do not rely on tribulus for your PCT period. Just to confirm, trib is not sufficient. Think that one is sorted!

I have already done one cycle, what changes?

The addition of a second compound such as DECA (Deca Durabalon), increasing the dose of the original compound or ‘kick starting’ with and oral steroid are all methods of progression. Dbol kick starts are popular or running an oral at the back end of the cycle is also a possibility. Frontloading a higher test dose in the initial weeks is also chosen by many
Advanced cycles are again beyond the scope of this article but can be discussed in the drugs forum at www.huge****s.co.uk
Fell free to post your proposed cycle there for critique. I am not a steroid guru by any means and simply have a basic appreciation of their use, cycling and role in training

Please appreciate this is not a website for sourcing anabolic steroids and none of the owners or moderators are either associated with the supply or advocate the use of AAS

Ok, you have the tools, now fcuk off and grow, naturally or as an enhanced athlete after plenty of reading! It does not take steroids to add muscle, it takes a dedicated, wise man free of excuses.

For those requiring tailored advice (on diet and training, not steroid use, my email is brawnology@yahoo.com)

Toxictoffee

toxictoffee

ps

tht above is not restricted to AAS users nor is it definitive, its a sample diet

Bulldozer

That was actually a good read! Good basic advise.

I Personally think 4 days MAY be OTT for guys like airforce1 however. Being a hardgainer (most likely) as he is very ectomorphic tendencies.

Wouldnt you say it was more sensible to base your training towards strength at the beggining? Then when you are moving a far bit of iron worry about hypertrophy.

(im not looking for an argument dude never was)

You quoted Stuart McRobert also which gob smacked me i have to admit

__________________
If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing. ~ Anatole France



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.