davey d

I have a fast motabalism and want to gain extra weight,i have sorted most of my diet out now,and have my regular supps and vitamins,i habve just bought some whey as i work nights and can't stop to eat all the time,obviously i have to drink loads of water.
But can i take whey more than once a day..

invisiblekid

yes - maybe look at Meal Replacement shakes as well.

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mickus

Davey,

Whey is best absorbed upon wake up as your body is short on aminos and you will have the best chance of getting the most out of it.

Do two scoops upon wake up, should be around 50g of protein from that alone.

I do three shakes daily myself, upon wake up with me oats then after training I have another one but this time with weight gainer aswell plus I do two scoops with milk just as I am going to bed.

I also have a very fast metoblism lad, I need to consume atleast 5000 cals daily with around 400-600g of carbs and atleast 250g of protein minumum to get any serious amount of weight gain.

What height and weight you currently sitting at???

Jimmy

can you please post up your diet?

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'Genetics is the science of heredity and variation in living organisms. Inheritance in organisms occurs by means of discrete traits, called genes.'

davey d

i,m currently nine stone stone and 5ft 7inch.

work nigths so they this may sound weird to you.
Diet
Wake up 7pm..full meal = meat with rice pasta or veg.

8pm: whey one scoop with milk.

130am:pie/or sarnie.piece of fruit

3.30am pasta / sarnie
9.00:weetabix or scrambled egg on toast.x4

plus codliver oil capsules and centrium.

and fluids.

invisiblekid

Nothing like enough protein there. Not enough food in general really.

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Jimmy

not too bad but as said above....not enough food

i guess you can only eat at those times?

if so

buy yourself a good weight gainer suplement and take it between meals 2&3...and...3&4

but if you can eat at any time...then we can overhaul the whole diet ok

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'Genetics is the science of heredity and variation in living organisms. Inheritance in organisms occurs by means of discrete traits, called genes.'

toxictoffee

there is no such thing as a fast metabolism

Bulldozer

Could you explain that in more detail please?

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toxictoffee

certainly

having fast metabolism is BS

if you have a 1.0lt metro you dont need much petrol to get to the destination of choice so you dont put 10000000s of litres in as it will overspill

if you have a 6lt V12 and put 10lt of petrol in and expect the thing to get anywhere you aint going to

simple enough

having a 'fast metabolism' is a simple cop out for those who are not willing to put the work in

after working with gas analysis and metabolic testing i can confirm that people love to use 'fast metabolism' as an excuse for their short comings.

it means nothing, its simply a case of the body requiring more calories to create an anabolic environment whever that be LBM of fat mass

RMR is 70% genetically determined and the notion of not putting on weight becuase of a 'fast metabolism' is a kop out

i have plenty of data to show the result of it

Bulldozer

I totally agree that people do use a fast metabolism as an excuse of not being able to put weight on. Where the fact is they simple dont eat enough.

Everybody can put weight on! But to say "there is no such thing as a fast metabolism" is just not right!! Also we are not cars!

One's metabolism speed does vary from person to person! There for logic dictates that some have a fast metabolism and some have a slow metabolism.

I would say governing factors of a persons metabolism speed come down to a few things, such as genetics, amount of LBM , what sex they are and there age. (might have missed something )

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toxictoffee

ok

TDEE is what is mixed up with metabolism

RMR is 70% genetically determined and the other 30% is due to things like increase in LBM, chronic dieting/low calorie/carb intake, stress, stimulants

people are confusing TDEE with metabolism

if the raging ecto did fcuk all day in day out they would gain weight when in a surplus but the are hypocaloric as result of increase in TDEE not becuase of their RMR

fast metabolisms are not really ever the case, i have seen people with 2400 as a steady RMR which would mean a usual intake of 3200 would maintain weight on a 'normal schedule'

that isnt high

their RER will also influence body composition too

is it worht me posting an article i wrote on it or will that just be IMO?

Bulldozer

Sure mate post it up. I enjoyed your carb rotation artictle

I think we are basically saying the same thing this time too (there's a shock ay ;) )

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toxictoffee

“Men should eat 2500 calories a day, woman 500 less.” So state government recommendations. (GDA)
“The more muscle you have, the more calories you need.”
“The body doesn’t use carbs after 5pm.”
“65% of your maximum heart rate equates to fat loss.”

All of these blanket statements are incorrect yet so freely banded around the fitness industry and often published in leading magazines. There is no ‘standard calculation’ for metabolic rate, the idea of online calculators is flawed and even respected testing methods such as the Harris Benedict (1) method can be inaccurate. Testing in this manner will exclude many subsections of society, including strength athletes, sportsmen and bodybuilders.
RMR, RER, RQ and DEE are, in fact, ultimately dictated by genetics. Nature rules, with nurture and medical conditions offering a hand in altering matters in relation to different environments created.

Firstly, let’s address the acronyms above

RMR (Resting Metabolic Rate)
Resting metabolic rate is the amount of calories the body uses to maintain homeostasis when at rest (with the digestive system ‘inactive’) This is the base line figure to maintain weight if you lay down for a 24 hour period. Many studies will refer to your BMR (basal metabolic rate) which is similar but does not factor into the equation a resting digestive system. RMR is a more accurate calculation due to being in a fasted state. This is your metabolic rate.

RER (Respiratory Exchange Ratio)
This equation works out which macronutrient the body burns at rest during the RMR test. Many people will be carbohydrate burners while others will be fat burners at rest, with the remainder appearing somewhere in the middle. A measure of carbon dioxide exhaled in relation to oxygen inhaled will give a score up to 1.0, showing total sugar burning. In short this resultant figure indicates the preferred fuel of the body. A score of 0.70 shows very few carbohydrates are utilised by the body. The government recommendation of 55% of calories from carbohydrates, 30% from fat and 15% from protein are blown out of the water when this data is generated.

RQ (Respiratory Quotient)
RQ is similar to RER but monitored at a cellular level in the working muscle (during exercise). Again on a scale to 1.0, this test shows which fuel the body prefers to burn at each incremental heart rate from rest to maximum beats. Data on the contribution of fats and carbohydrates is accompanied by an overall calorie burning figure in this test.

DEE (Daily Energy Expenditure)
EE is the RMR plus calories used in thermogenesis plus additional calories required to complete daily tasks. This figure will create your maintenance calorie figure. Any alteration in this figure will lead to either a positive or negative energy balance. Rarely does this equate to the suggested guidelines of 2500 calories for men and 2000 for women. REE is often used in place of RMR but for the purpose of this study, DEE is determined as a daily total as opposed to a resting figure. The technical term is EE but its important to establish the difference between REE and DEE

What does this mean in relation to body composition?

With the data above it is easy to take the guesswork out of training and nutrition, and work out how many calories your body needs to maintain weight, which macronutrient it prefers to achieve specific tasks, and how many calories are required to add or lose weight through a positive or negative energy balance.

What can you determine from the test information?

1 How many calories your body needs to maintain weight
2 Which macronutrient (fat or carbohydrates) it prefers at rest
3 Which foods you should eat at which times
4 Your ideal heartbeat range for burning fat
5 Where you begin to burn muscle and go catabolic in a fasted state
6 How many calories you are actually burning at any given heart rate intensity
7 Your body's own macronutrient split of carbohydrate and fat when exercising
8 Predict your daily EE
9 Create and sustain anabolic (and avoid lengthy catabolic) environments
10 Avoid starvation mode, allow the body to burn fat again, and avoid thyroid down-regulation

How does this impact the bodybuilder and fitness enthusiast?

The implications of this data are massive. It’s a powerful weapon for the trainer to employ to tackle their goals whether it be muscle gain, fat loss, or both. If you know where your body burns fat during cardio you can ultimately make any cardio work you do non-catabolic (preserve muscle mass) and simply strip off fat, leaving vital nutrients for repair and recovery. Users of the data have literally avoided years of wasted training and suboptimal diets in the pursuit of physical perfection.
For pre-competition bodybuilders this information is vital. For those who are not willing to sacrifice hard-earned muscle mass, again it’s simply invaluable. Even for those looking to get into their wedding dress, or look good on holiday with only limited time to prepare, it’s a breakthrough in exercise science.

It's important to know where the body burns fat and where it burns carbohydrates. When carbohydrate is not present, the body is forced to use protein and fat to fuel exercise - which leads to weight loss but muscle loss, too. Data personally collected by the authors shows 65% of maximum heart rate is highly catabolic for many people contrary to what we are told by the media. The fat burning zone is not a myth, but it is individual, and it’s simply a case of finding your own zone and designing your cardiovascular work around this. The data will also give an accurate figure of calories expelled in the session allowing the trainer to again formulate EE and modify bodyweight as a result. This figure again is inaccurately calculated by many pieces of gym equipment Find the real number and work in your fat burning zone, not the muscle burning zone.

What can you do with RMR? Resting metabolic rate allows the trainer to establish how many calories they can cut and bulk on. Data again personally collected has shown two male subjects of similar weight, age and body composition to have a 700 calorie difference in their RMR. This figure is huge and can be the difference between someone adding muscle on a 3000 calorie diet and one losing weight on what was designed to be a bulking diet. Know your RMR; know where to start when creating a calorie deficit (to cut), or surplus (to bulk). When people shout “I'm not gaining, I'm eating loads” we now have one more source of information as to why this is the case.

Below are the RMR test results from two men of the same age using gas analysis:

Subject 1
Height: 180 cm
Weight: 103kg
Body fat %: 15
RMR 1800 calories

Subject 2
Height: 180 cm
Weight: 84kg
Body fat %: 17
RMR 2500 calories

In these real world examples, the heavier, more muscular man requires less calories than the lighter, but proportionally fatter man. The usual assumption is that the facts would be the other way round.

This emphasises how person-specific metabolic rate is, and how simple measurements applied to an online ‘metabolic rate calculator’ are highly inaccurate when trying to establish RMR. Gas analysis is a requirement if gains are your goal. Without it, you're purely flying by guesswork.
(700 calories equates to 1lb/0.4kg alteration in weight every 5 days)

Here are some online examples for the same subjects taken from a respected and fairly standard online calculator (3) for the same subjects:

Subject 1
Height: 180 cm
Weight: 103kg
Body fat %: 15 (excluded from online calculator)
RMR 2050 calories

(250 calories over actual requirement)

Subject 2
Height: 180 cm
Weight: 84kg
Body fat %: 17 (excluded from online calculator)
RMR 1884 calories

(616 calories under actual requirement)

The RER will allow the trainer to find what their body prefers as a macronutrient source of energy. “No carbs after 5pm” is often banded around the fitness world. This is utter rubbish. An RER of 1.0 will show, at rest, the body is 100% reliant on carbohydrates and is not burning fat while an RER of 0.7 will show the body simply doesn’t metabolise carbohydrates at rest and is predominantly reliant on fat as its source of energy. This means some people can sit at night and eat carbohydrate rich food and burn it when resting whilst others will have to ensure meals in sedentary times are fat and protein-based. Everyone is different.
Does this mean you can cut and bulk at the same time? Yes, it does. You can create environments that are both anabolic and catabolic in a day. If the anabolic environment is more prevalent than the catabolic environment you can strip fat and add muscle. This is the holy grail of bodybuilding and training for aesthetics or body recomposition. The notion of requiring a calorie deficit to alter body composition is also thrown into doubt in favour of subtrate utilisation. In short, if you know which macronutrients your body uses at different times, you can manipulate the environments that allow for muscle to be added and fat to be lost.
Gas analysis is the only way to acquire accurate data on RQ, which debunks the Balke VO2 test (2) for those trying to establish how many calories they are burning in a cardio session and what percentage of those calories are attributed to each macronutrient.

Here is an example of the plan in action:
1 Wake
2 Carry out cardio in your determined fat burning, non catabolic zone
3 Purely burn the fat from excess calories ingested (required to bulk)
4 Then eat to bulk using data from your RMR/RER tests, thereby not touching the calories required to add new muscle tissue
5 Continue this cycle and continue to burn fat and build muscle

This is not reserved for the new trainer either. The seasoned trainer who thought periodization (bulking and cutting cycling) was the only way to look good can use this data to continue with steady linear gains. Adding mass with low fat gains is possible and as stated above the ‘cut and bulk in one’ can be achieved when an adequate diet and training plan are formulated from the data.

Burn fat add muscle, don’t burn muscle and fat.

How to get tested
With limited resources in the UK, metabolic testing is both rare and often the data presented is not interpreted well by the testing centre. Very few people are able to put the numbers into a tailored nutrition and training plan leaving the trainer lost in a sea of decimal places and percentage signs. Many scientists understand the data but they often fail to appreciate what it means in terms of body recomposition.

Worse still, they are unable to suggest effective diets, and training and exercise routines designed to capitalise on and maximise the data relevant to each individual.

But things have changed. A new era of metabolic testing and data interpretation has begun.

Muscletalk moderator toxictoffee and Muscletalk member rightyho are now able to offer the testing, training and nutrition advice to suit. As fitness professionals, experienced trainers, professional athletes, competitors and gym-owners, the knowledge is formulated to suit any given goal or time frame. The testing centre is located in Peterborough, Cambridgeshire with additional scope for testing to be completed at your gym/leisure centre if block bookings are assured. Home visits can be negotiated via email.

There are plenty of tests that can be carried out above and beyond those stated above including VO2 max testing and full day-by-day data sampling and analysis. Individual response to supplements, thermogenics and drugs can also be assessed in completely confidential surroundings.

To contact the team, email toxictoffee@hotmail.com or rightyho@aol.com or simply direct the questions on the Muscletalk board.

If you wish to speak "live time" about your requirements, an MSN Messenger feature has been enabled to answer online questions. Add Metabolicmagician@gmail.com to your MSN to ask questions about the testing (emails should, however be directed to toxictoffee and rightyho at the addresses above)

References:

1 Harris J, Benedict F (1918). "A Biometric Study of Human Basal Metabolism.". Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 4 (12): 370-3

2 Wells, J., Balke, B. and Van Fossan, D. Lactic Acid accumulation during work. A suggested standardization of work classification. J Appl. Physiol. 10: 51-55. 1957.

3 http://www.reply42.com/metabolism/basal.php4

toxictoffee

PS

this is describing substrate utilisation which is a very very hard balancing act although we saw some good results but its a fine line and lengthy process