Panthro

i agree with cookie on all that lot, esp squats! Obviously as part of the training i was doing, i have been squatting havy heavy and it has definately given me a BIG set of glutes, solid yes, but also big.

TBH i dont think you need to shrug if you deadlift. i sure dont.

I still use military press, but thn im training for strength, from a BBIng perspective i can see where OSC is comming from..

as for flat bench.. i think that is a great exercise for injury.. so many injuries arise from that...

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hackskii

I just started almost the same routine as winger and am going to do military and biceps instead of triceps but for the most part similar.
I am doing this for strength because I am too prefetigued from doing my other associated exercise for the same muscle group to really hit it with any intensity.
So with that said, I think I will be able to get some strength gains from this routine.
I will try it for 8-10 weeks and see how it goes.

I do think bench can cause injury but this is magnified using gear. I never had an injury until I used gear. Hey, just the normal wear and tear from everyday living but I attribute some of that to age too.
So for bench, I enjoy the lift and helped the triceps out too. The chest is one of my better body parts and if bench is a poor exercise then all I can say is it works for me.
I always put my priority into bar bench and did inclines after the bench and stopped doing flys and peckdeck about 6 years ago.

I also noticed after taking gear the shoulders exploded too and feel that this has somthing to do with having the most androgen receptors in the delts.

I dont get much lactic acid buildup anymore unless I do a new exercise that I either have never done or not done in a long time. I also feel that if you dont have the size on the muscle you wont get it from doing isolation exercises.
We all have our stubbern body parts and hammering away on them to make them grow just does not work.
I like winger dont have traps either. But the only time I did see growth was when I went really heavy in shrugs.
I myself am wide and some traps would look good I think.

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Scott


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winger

Its ok to disagree. Ask all those strong men that you are going to compete with if they do bench? I dont even think Cookie agrees with himself. The key to being big is a big foundation. How do you get that. From basic compound movements. I have been training for a very long time and I have no injuries. I go very heavy and still have no injuries.
Do you do bench Panthro?..............................

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winger

Would you say that some of your gains came from gear?
Do I take advice from someone that got big from gear or from someone that did it natural?
I am new to this. Would a routine from someone that is doing gear work for me?

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megatron

I don't pretent to know even a fraction of cookies knowladge on the subject of individual exercises BUT, if you look at the world bench press champs (800lbs+) these dudes don't have wierd looking pecs, they are mountainous.

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Panthro

... and if you take their bench shirts off they can bench over 600lbs.

Jamie Reeves told me half of these big benchers DONT have pecs, as they rely on bench shirts. also, one of the big names who he was watching (cant remember name) did a 270kg (~600lbs) bench raw and jamie said in a powerlifting comp he would have failed the lift, and it was cr@p, but then he put his shirt on and banged out over 800lbs..

I think the pic you wil have seen was scott mendelson who is a 900 bencher,and has an awesome physique to match, but half the other guys dont and do have weird shaped pecs...

Winger.. I dont flat bench anymore. Close grip & Incline yes, flat-very rarely, i dont need to. and a lot of the "big strong men" i compete against dont either.. how often do you use your chest in strongman anyway???

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Cheater2K

Mines split up like

Monday - Chest and Bi's
Tueday - Day off (or i do legs here and have wednesday off)
Wednesday - Legs (or day off and do legs on tuesday.)
Thursday - Shoulders and Abs
Friday - Back and Triceps

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winger

Yea I figured you did inclines. That hits the chest a little bit better anyway. How hard is it to get one of those bench shirts on? What if you blew a rotator just putting the shirt on?..........lol

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Panthro

very hard mate, with the double denim ones you need to lube yourself up! lol.... they are pretty pointless IMO, and there is currently a bit of a backlash about them in powerlifting circles, and now lots of new un-equiped federations are popping up as people are getting ****ed off with the pointless ness of the shirts!

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hackskii

Well, again I can only say what goes for me. I have always benched as I dig that exercise (my fave). I enjoy doing it and if for any other reason that is reason enough. 90 percent of all my development came from bench and my chest might be my best bodypart.

But we are all diffrent with diffrent bodys, diffrent genetics, diffrent diets, sleep paterns, percentages of slow and fast twich fibers, motivation, age, routines.
What works for one might not work for all or even others.

Just get into the gym, enjoy your workout because you can and reap the benefits of your time in the gym. It should be fun and setting goals and reaching them is fun. Looking at your improvements in the mirror is fun too. Having a woman touch you and say, you are so hard (muscles) is fun. Even guys walking up to you checking you out knowing you are twice as big as them is fun.
I do enjoy what I do and if it was not fun, I dont think I would do it.

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ONE SMART COOKIE

OOOHHHH boy OOOHHHH boy,I seem to have open a can of worms with this one,"NICE"

Were do we begin mmmmm,

Winger,right thats a good place to start as I got a reaction from you first whats wrong with the upper and lower chest?we all have them pectorials major and minor(upper and lower)so we need to make adjustments to our exercises to take full advantage of their different movements,granted that the main aspect of the pecs is to bring the elbows across the body but if you bring them across lowdown you will feel the lower pec contract most,then if you bring them across high up you will feel the upper pec contract the most,try it sat up in a chair no weight in your hand and feel the difference in the way the muscles moves,it moves differently according to the angle of the elbow.

Big front delts,mmmm,for a lot of people over developed front delts lead to injuries in other areas because of instabilities in other muscles and they look ugly and out of proportion to the rest of the body,the question we have to ask is"ARE WE BODYBUILDERS OR WEIGHTLIFTERS?"I would rather spend more time developing the lateral head and look wide wide wide than thick and rounded and hunched forward like quasimodo.

Squats donot build the best legs around they build the fattest and most out of proportion legs around,just look a bbers today big legs big big butts infact bigger butts than their legs,as for growth hormone release yes they do release grow hormone but bet ya if you trained with me I could show you that you could release just as much growth hormone using sissy squats or roman chair squats with the right tempo and rep/set scheme.

Triceps,mmmm,maybe your not concentrating enough on the movement of the muscle when doing kickbacks or pushdowns,when i do em I`m in serious pain,less weight more thought about what your doing,the mind is our biggest tool so use it,thats what i say,kickback,just about everybody does em wrong they just kick the weight straight back,wrong wrong wrong,squeeze it back and out to the sides at about 35/45% away from the body and to make it harder have the knuckles facing backwards rather than out to the sides as in the normal movement(1912 magazine gave me that one)

Most powerlifters have bunched up pecs that are very over developed in the lower portion,and they only lift as much as they do because as panthro said they cheat with bench shirts to for their arms/elbows up and across the chest.

What else?right if we only needed to do compound movements why do we bother with the rest of the exercises?why would bill pearl have bothered to write keys to the inner universe with 600 different exercises in it,he was a pioneer of the sport a very intelligent man,arnolds hero,so he did know what he was doing when he wrote the bloody thing,if we didnt need so many different insertions to our muscles why did nature bother with them,when all she had to do was put one slab of meat there to do the job,ever notice when you do a different exercise how the soreness is different the next day?thats because you have taxed it at another level of its range of motion and development.

And you can build a great physique with isolation movements,it just looks to be slower because you are developing each and every muscle individualy rather than just the bulky portion of it.

Thighs four muscle heads 4 exercise bi`s two muscle heads 2 exercises tri`s 3 head three exercises,imho,etc etc.

And yes I bench but not regular ones anymore,they affect my knackered shoulder,but I do bench to the neck which does not ever,why?because I keep the weight light to moderate I dont use a wide grip like most who try it and then hurt themselves,I use a grip which has my wrists directly above my elbows at the lowest part of the movement and I keep my elbows back not flapping to the front like most people do with benches and then they places the stress on the front delts and even biceps to help with the stabilising of the weight,and I have lost count of the pec tears that have ruined careers or physiques through the years.

And yes I do agree with myself always,but if somebody came to me to do a specific event then I would have to alter my thinking and doing of things to suit that individual,I would suggest my ideas if they siad no then we would do what they wanted and then when we hit the inevitable platue I would suggest again and the out come is nearl;y always the same,they never go back to their old ways,once they get over the lighter weights and weirdness of some of the exercises and leave their egos outside the gym they make gains.

After 17years of doing this and tons and tons of mistakes even I am still learning and willing to learn,but,I have learnt that there is more than one way to skin a cat,and more than one way to train the differnce is I am willing to try these things not just say no at face value,trial and error is the only way we learn.

Right flame me

And I darnt have a brainstorm with jimmy it would be like newton and einstein getting to gether and the worlds not ready for that:p

Panthro

As always, and i dont expect any less from you mate! gets us all thinking!


more like laurel and hardy! ;)

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Killerkeane

excellent reading, Basically to cut a long story short, i am working 5 days a week like this
monday- Chest (Supersetting Incline Fly's with Bench & Incline Press with Incline Fly's)
All dumbell work
Tuesday-Back ( Supersetting Deadlifts with Close grip pulldowns & Wide chin and dips with Seated Cable Row
Wednesday- Legs ( No supersetting, Squats, EXT, CURLS, PRESS & Calves
Thursday- Shoulders ( S/ting Shoulder press with Crossover & Side Lats with Front Lats
Friday-Rest day

Saturday- Arms
Biceps( supersetting Rope curls with hammer curls & BArbell curls with concentration curls)
Triceps(Supersetting P/downs with kickbacks & overhead p/downs with one arm extensions
Sunday-off

This is what i have been doing for 3 days now, and it is really hitting me very hard. My chest is red raw, my back is killing and my legs are shaky as i have just done them. I have eaten 3500 calories last 3 days, and 2g protein per pound of bodyweight so its looking good at the moment, i swear i have gained weight in these last 3 days but must be imagining. I like this workout as.... i forgot his name now but Dorian Yates trainer did this and gained about 30lb Lean muscle mass in about 14 weeks.

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Killerkeane

wow cookie, you know your stuff mate. That was a good read, dont know a lot because i have not been lifting for a awful lot of time but have learned a tremendous amount since i have been doing it so that was very educational. I believe in every range of motion, direction, intensty hitting that particular muscle. Which is why cabled weights are good most of the time as it targets a particular part of that muscle. Im gonna print that one off cookie, some quality info in there.

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winger

Dont you just love this!
I think I was saying that before you go for the little isolation excercises that I would build a foundation first. Basic compound movements. Bill Pearl was a big man and I am sure he didn't start out with isolation excercises. I also rotate a lot of different excercises so as far as not having the whole muscle worked I would be supprised. Now genetics has held me back some......lol. I only bench every other week. I usually stay with the higher reps. I agree with the over developed front delts leading to injury. If you look again at the routine I do more back and rear delt than chest. I know the front delts get hit allot so no use working them.
If squats dont build the big massive good looking legs then were did Tom Platz get those thighs. If I remember he used to do like 35 reps with some massive weight in squats. I think he attributed most of his size from squats. Dont shoot the messenger.
Tricepts, for me I like to prestretch the tricept because it makes my tricepts sore and I feel I get a better workout.
I also have been training for a long time. I started when I was 16 and I am still clueless...........lol 28 years of training and I like you have tried it all. I cant really flame you but you wont catch me doing bench to the neck. I have tried them and they pump so good but seems like I could do some real damage. I think you could have two workout partners doing the same thing and one might not grow and the other might make great gains.
Its almost like saying that if some guy had small calves and it was genetic and you told him that he was doing calve raises wrong because he had small calves................lol.
Every once in a while I used to train with this guy named bear. He was this very big black guy that benched close to 500 lbs. We were doing shoulders and he went over to the cable crossovers and started doing them. I told him he was working chest at that point. He walkes me over to the mirror and says whoes shoulders are bigger. This guy was a genetic freak. Well his were but that doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about. I no you know what you are talking about but if you are gifted in a body part, that doesn't mean you know what you are talking about. A narrow chest could be from to narrow of a grip on the bench but I suppose it is because his genetics dont allow for the wide chest.

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