whiffin

OKay, basically I've started my cycle last week and was under the impression that a 500kcal deficit would be best as it would enable me to lose a lot of BF (especially 'cos I'mn using tren) whilst the winny will keep strength and the test prop enable me to make small bulk gains.

I was hoping to lose a couple of % BF and gain a few lbs in lean mass.

Someone has now told me that I've got the wrong end of the stick, need to eat big and clean.

The goals from this cycle are to:

a) Lose a couple of % BF and if possible gain a few (5) lbs of lean mass. Certainly keep what I have!

b) If not possible, bulk as much as aI can without putting on BF - hence why it's a cutting cycle.

Has anyone done a similar cycle? What was your diet like? Should I be in calorie deficit like I have been? Or have I got the wrong idea?

All advice appreciated



My (cutting) cycle:

75mg tren eod
100mg test prop eod
50mg winny ed (oral)

6 weeks, then week off, then PCT, I'm just over a week in

My first cycle

My stats:

26, 5'8", 179lbs, around 18-19% BF

My goals

Long term: to get big. Don't want to be ripped, just buff, big arms etc. I want pecs

Short term: want BF to go down and to put on muscle, would be happy with 15%. I want my tits to be pecs

Cycle: someone on this forum, on an 8 week tren/winny course lost 2% BF and put on 8lbs LM, that would be amazing

My routine

I know this is nailed, so no point posting. It's a 3 day split (legs / chest-tris-shoulders / back-biceps) with abs on another day. Focussing on compound exercises with mainly heavy weights. But this has been reviewed and altered lots, and is definately considered good. I gym at 5:30 M, W, F

CV - I usually swim 2-3 lunch times a week (for 30 mins fast), off-road cycle on 2 of my non-gym days (no more than an hour), and try and get some endurance in (2-4 hours) at the weekends. The endurance cycle is always fuelled with carbs etc so I don;t start burning muscle.

My diet

I try and vary my diet, and try to aim for around 330g protein, 150g carbs (unless I'm dong lots of CV then this will increase slightly) and 70g fat. All sources are good i.e. oats / veg for carbs, chicken/tuna for protein and olive oil/nuts/cold liver oil for efas.

Calories, now I;ve been told I'm doing teh right thing - what do you guys think? I try and aim for a 500kcal deficit each week. If this should be lower (and let the tren do the work) or higher (faster loss) then I am flexible.

try and drink lots of water and have vitamins etc, including 3g of vit C per day to flush things through

I eat every 2-3 hours, have PWO and PPWO sorted and have whey on wake, PWO and whey with oil before bed.

Drugs

I don't drink, smoke or take rec drugs (except my cycle)

My only vice is caffiene I have is about 4 cans sugar free red bull when I go out in town on Friday nights. But none during the week.




(I just want to ensure that in 5 weeks time I don't get told "your cycle would have bene far more effective if ....")

Cheers

big

Run the prop a week past the tren and start your PCT 3 DAYS after your last jab. Do NOT wait a week!

You haven't told us your cycle history though. This isn't your first cycle right?

Other than that, it looks good. You'll like that cycle.

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whiffin

Gotcha - I'll be out of prop by then, but a mate will have a bit left over I think

First cycle

Nice! - I hope so.

One thing that is REALLY worrying me (after what people have said) though.

I was hoping to have a 500kcal deficit and therefore lose a lot (2%) bedy fat using this cycle without any lean mass loss. I was thinking the tren would aid fat loss, whilst test and winny keep strength/lean mass

BUT some people have been saying that kcal deficit on gear is not worth it, and will make not much difference. Now I'm worried. If this is the case then I'll forget cutting and eat lots for the remaining 4.5 weeks of teh cycle.

What do you guys think? This is really worrying me at the moment

big

Stop the tren a week early then. Just make sure the prop is run a week past the tren.

To be honest though, that isn't a good first cycle. I would recommend that as a 3rd, or possible 2nd cycle. But no way would I recommend tren for a first cycle.

If I were you, I'd cut with clen/eca until you get to about 12%, and then go on a really clean test bulker.

But since you've started the cycle, I'd just drop the tren and carry on with the prop and winny on their own. Tren is not a good idea for a first cycle. Eat really clean, and do a carb-cycling approach. That way you will get the benefits of fat loss plus you'll get the anabolic nature of taking in a lot of carbs around your workouts.

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whiffin

Gotcha



Why not? Other people said it'd be good ?!? Too late now I guess, but got no side effects (like tren cough) and seems to inject easily enough. Why is tren so bad, heard it's great for weight loss etc.


Will eat clean, have been doing

But should I be eating:

a) clean at a kcal deficit (if so how much by)
b) clean at a neutral kcal
c) clean at a kcal surplus (if so by how much)

Like I say, about 500kcal deficit at the moment.

What do you mean by carb cycling? Please explain

Many thanks for your help

Jock

Agree with Big you won't need Tren in a first cycle especially if its a cutter, 100mg of Prop EOD is more than enough.

Mate it sounds you are a bit pre occupied with numbers here. You need to eat at a deficit to lose fat. Don't expect to lose fat and gain a lot of LBM, steroids help a lot but they are not magic. If this is your goal then I would say would probably need something like GH (only recommended for VERY experienced steroid users ie not yourself)

At your weight as long as you are eating somewhere close to the region of 2,500cals per day then you should be ok. If you are unhappy with your results adjust the total accordingly the only way to do this is by trial and error, there is no way somebody (especially from here) can just give you an exact figure. What you MUST be sure that the calories that you do eat are from the correct (quality) sources.

For example you should be looking to get 50-60% of your calories from Protein 20-30% of your calories from carbs and the remainder from fat (10-20%).

You can play about with these ratios as much as you want (there is no way to make up for personal experience) but you need to make sure that your carb intake is suppressed (like it or not to lose fat you have to reduce carbs).

So for example if you went for the following diet schedule:

2,500cals per day

50% Protein
30% Carbs
20% Fat

Remember that there are:

4 calories per gram of Protein
4 calories per gram of Carbohydrate
9 calories per gram of Fat

You would need to be eating.....

313g of Protein per day
188g of Carbs per day
56g of Fat per day.

Spread the above between 5-7 meals to make sure that your metabolism is stimualated evenly throughout the day and your body is not starved of any macronutrient for any longer than 2-3 hours (this is maximum time between meals you should leave). Spread the carbs between the first 3 meals (or shakes) of the day. Get some complex carbs with your pre-workout meal some simple carbs (dextrose or maltodextrin) in your post-workout shake and some more complex carbs in your post-workout meal. If you still have more carbs to eat taper them off so that they are less with every meal and you should eat none at all after 6pm. You should aim to get 8 hours sleep every night and drink 1 gallon of water every day.

What Big means by carb cycling is that you might want to keep zig-zagging your carb intake so that it is higher on some days than others. This will keep the body from adjusting to a fixed daily amount and slowing the metabolism. For example this can be done by throwing in a an extra piece of fruit or two now and again just to keep you body guessing.

Just remember that diet is not an exact science, what works for one person may not work for you. What I have suggested may work, but then again it may not. Keep a close eye on your results and always be prepared to make adjustments along the way.

As long as you are sure that your cardio and training are also spot-on then you should do well.

Best of luck, Jock

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whiffin

Nice one thanks, quote close to what I am doing:


Typical day (today - I've guessed evening meals):

9:00 wake
9:10 whey in water
10:30 wholemeal bread / 2 tins tuna / 1 slice brown bread / ketchup
11:40 semi skimmed milk / porridge / sugar free jam
2:15 200g lean mince / mixed veg / extra virgin olive oil
4:00 (pre workout) semi skimmed milk / porridge
5:45 gym workout (1 hour, intense, chest/tris/houlders here)
7:00 PWO (whey in water)
7:20 PPWO (3 tins tuna, mixed veg)
10:00 cod liver oil / whey in water
10:15 bed

With around 3-4g vit C, 2x multi vits and about a gallon of water

My carbs usually go up on different days (ie higher when I do CV), also substitue tuna/mince for chicke, turkey or salmon and veg changes. Other than that, about the same daily. (flavours such as herbs/spices change)

Around 2200-2300 kcal
300g protein
140g carbs
45g fats

(I know my routine is good - been reviewed lots, and get CV in on off days etc)

... I think I'm eating clean but somehow feel I should eat less. Perhaps I'm being too harsh.

Should I notice good weight loss with my 6 week cycle and this diet?

Thanks for your help

Jock

Do you get any PWO carbs?

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whiffin

Only in my PPWO meal

Could stick some maltodextrin in my PWO shake if needed - I have some

Good idea? To fuel my recovery I assume ...

Jock

YES! You gotta get some carbs in there it is very important that you do so. You are letting the anabolic window pass you by if you aren't taking in any PWO carbs in immediatley (within 30mins) of your workout.

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whiffin

Cool - will do

Other than that, how's everything doing?

I know it's hard to say, but any idea on how my BF I should expect to lose with that cycle on that diet - roughly, at a guess?

Cheers

Jock

Overall looks very good, impossible to really estimate but I did a Tren/Prop/T3 cycle last year and lost about 4% with no loss of LBM.

Here are some of my posts, just for reference:

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthrea...t=Jock+cutting
http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/showthrea...t=Jock+cutting

Best of luck mate, Jock

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whiffin

I'd be overwhelmed with 4% - right, we're on

Nice one, cheers dude