hackskii

Hey man, for ever I have been saying people eat too much protein.
Bill Phillips some time ago talked about cycling your protein.
I have noticed on more than one thread you suggest less protein.

In your opinion (gotta love that one eh?) what is the requirement for a body builder in grams per lbs of body weight.

I hear all the normal numbers from 1.0 to 2.0 grams per pound.
I have done some reading on protein requirements and it seems far less is needed.

I in my life never had over 1 gram per pound. I dont need alot of calories, so the more protein I intake the less other food I take in.

Not starting a debate, I am starting a thread for all to participate to shake the protein carpet to get the dirt out.

Well?

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ah24

I aim for 1.2g. There is no perfect amount, it'll be debated for ages, everyones different but that seems to suit me.

danimal

300-350g per day about 100 from powder

ah24

So what does that work out with relation to your bodyweight?

toxictoffee

thats because you are american

thats because you are are right

thats because this is a .co.uk board and we for sme reason are scared sh1tless of not eating enough

lets look logically

why do we consume so much?
fcuk knows

when mixed macro meals are ingested the requirement for protein is lowered as less it utilised for energy. then the presence of CHO enables for the syntehsis to be more efficieint

people in the UK seem to think protein, protein , protein and actually over consume and neglect the other two macros

of course excess protein, once nitrogen requirements are met sinmply mean the carb skeleton from the aminos inefficiently follw the carb or fat pathway anyway with none of the benefits of the said macros

so no insulin like carbs, no micronutrients and none of the test enhancing functions of dietary fat

when low carbing of course excess protein hinde3rs ketosis and some may argue the nitrogenous waste from excess protein is harmful, again thats a debate i am not going into

layne norton is trying to pin down an 'ideal' grams per serving amount but TBH basing it on weight alone is crazy

the use of AAS obviouslt enhances the protein turnover rate and therefore some exceptions can be made for those on a cycle

the notion of protein cycling though is BS

it seems we are more in and age where carbs are the malligned dietary marco and if we keep them low we wont get fat and pritein high we will gain muscle

no

we need the anabolic nature and synergistic effect of CHO to maintain the positive nitrogen balance

most of the crazy intakes suggested are based on anecdotal evidence and chinese whispers

here is some good reading

http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/19/suppl_5/513S

lyle mcdonald, john berarid and chris aceto will all say the same and the further i pursue this magic figure the more i say 200g tops for a muscled guy, high carbs and fats to suit is better to bulk on than this high protein and 'enough' carbs BS people try in order to cut and bulk in one

quality AA ingestion
adeqauet CHO ingestion
appreciate turnover of the trainer in hand

=

growth

300g of protein +200g of carbs = ineffective use of macros to grow

the notion of grams per lb of bodyweight is also suboptimal as the metabolic state, the FFM/FM ratio and the timing will determine the amount

in short, do not sacrafice carbs for protein in order to grow
dont over eat protein to diet as it kicks you out of ketosis and of course too low a carb intake hinders thyroid and letpin levels
too low carbs to keep in calori budget hinders recovery, ATP synthesis and aneorib power

protein is required but is not the be all and end all of fieting

for me

250g of protein
500g of carbs
90g of fat bulks niceley

hat though is anecdotaol evidence from and AAS user who has an RER which favours CHO over fat

ah24

Yep agree with toxics post there. I was debating with big over the protein consumption - he recommends 2g per lb I and people i advise are growing off 1.2g per lb. All theories, im not saying bigs wrong at all as definately knows his stuff!

Iv upped my carbs quite a bit. At the moment im aiming for;
Protein = 175g
Carbs = 385g
Fats = 45-55g

Nytol

Very nice post Toxic, the more I read, the more I agree with many of the things you said there.

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hackskii

Ah, just the refreshing post I was looking for.
Several key elements stand out.
Ketosis and protein intake.
ATP production.
Test enhancing of dietary fats......Oh, cholesterol and saturated fats come to mind here.

I started this thread to shake the protein carpet as this was a concern to me forever.
I feel protein supports lean muscle mass.
But again if you look at lean muscle instead of overall bodyweight there is a huge diffrence (for me anyway....Don't even start lads Grrrrrr,,,,,,I am old:().

Nice to see some input here and I cant think of any other topic off hand that is more suitable to body building.
Even tho my spelling friggin sucks

Thanks Toxic.................................

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toxictoffee

now time to up the fat, as that is anabolic of course

scott

i think lyle mcodnanld rams this home

some proteins are ketogenic, some glycogenic and of course protein has the abilitiy (IIRC) to be 58% efficieint at being turned into glucose

so over consumption = out of letosis

(ps i cant spell for sh1t and i have no excuse as im english, you are merely a foreigner learning the lingo...you know the score)

7 meals of 35g of protein ED for a well set BB'er is fine is generally ok in my book
i am not even going to go into the 'eat more protein when you come off a steroid cycle' to keep lean mass

its ll about the carbs which go with it

the notion of low carb lean bulks also becomes laughable IMO for the natural trainer

fill the amino pool like you would fill your car petrol tank
enough for your needs, not too much that you spill over and make a mess
dont forget too the car aint going to go anywhere without any oil or a driver no matter how much petrol you put in it

Tinytom

Good points about emphasis on protein.

Lots of guys consume endless shakes because of protein which is a waste.

Personally I get better results from 350g protein a day than I did from 400g. However if I drop below 250g a day I definately see a detrimental effect.

Too many people have an idea that calories are the figure to work buy and as a result ingest too many saturated fat and processed carb calories most of which are useless to the body in terms of muscle building.

500g Carbs from sugar and bread is not the same as from Rice or potatoes. I think when people see breakdowns like this they just look for the food they like to match the numbers.

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toxictoffee

hi tom

yes

for someone like yourself who is an an AAS user i believe the level may increase slightly die to the nature of gear and your additional LBM, thus increasing the requirements to ensure a positive nitrogen balance


careful now :lift:

lots of benefits of these babies in the diet, just the type of them but as staple items i have to agree although whole eggs and red meat should of course be advocated and dextrose PWO...apart from that, yep i agree

i think some forget the notion of CHO requirements of the brain and CNS, which is ~120g ED for most

so 'bulk' off 250g of carbs and really you are not ultimately providing enough carbs for anabolism and on the flip side, consume too many and you do create anabolism but the anabolism of fat

IMO its about creating the right insulin response at the right time but thats a whole different debate (which would be nice some day)

i believe if people backed off a touch on protein and upped quality cals they would be better off but thats the nature of the UK, the US seem a little more 'clued' up on it

Tinytom

Yeah I agree mate

You do need some staurated fat and simple sugars in your diet but as you said Insulin is a major bonus or burden depending on the time of day.

I always have at least 2 or 3 red meat meals a week off season and of course egg yolks.

Dextrose for me isnt a good thing cos I always get tired from the sugar spike, I like Vitargo better.

I do also like OJ in the morning which I cant have while dieting :boohoo:

I was looking at some of Milos's articles and he's on thebutton with carbs. Lots of his guys start their diet on 800g of carbs a day!!!!

BUt then everyone diets different. I have never been able to get massively shredded on over 300g of carbs a day but I do substitute the calories from good fats from various sources.

Each diet I have been able to keep carbs higher - an indication of my increase in LMM I think as I can burn more during the day and the demand for glycogen is higher. Maybe soon I'll be at the 800g mark lol.

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toxictoffee

i think i could have dieted off 800g of carbs before due to my RER and active lifestyle

milo has some good stuff but some is a little 'way out there' and some a bit too marketing based NOW compared to before, but i like him

i am now very much for carb cycling BUT high flux (high inflow and high output) is equally handy for those who work

have a read on ronnies view on PPWO whole egg consumption off set by statins, it makes for interesting reading RE anabolism whilst obviating the issues of LDL/HDL cholesterol issues...but we aint all rinnie are we!!!!!

anyhow i would like some more info on vitargo and WMS as most is marketing related and anecdotal evidence over in vivo empirical evidence under different environments

i have loads sitting here but it 'aint sweet enough' to hit my taste buds...so dextrose wins, again i will read more into it later down the line

why red meat only a few times a week? surel the 'non protein' related benefits pull you in such as CLA content? and of course n3 intake from grass fed animals?

Nytol

Here is another very interesting article on excess protein consumption.

http://www.ukiron.net/showthread.php...hlight=Protein

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Tinytom

Vitargo Barley starch was researched at Nottingham UNiversity so I presume theres some data there. Having tried both I can definately say that Vitargo is better for carb loading and replenishment. More so than Dextrose as well.

I'm not a fan of redmeat as a grilled steak but I do like Chilli, Spag Bol, Burgers etc.

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