Trying to lose some fat? Read this! Best way to lose fat and not lose muscle! - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

**hackskii** · 07-04-2004, 09:47 PM

I typed this up from a book by Atkins. It took some time and there are probably typing errors but bear in mind the information is accurate. I knew that high fat, low carbohydrate diets did produce rapid weight loss but did not have any study groups to compare too.

Fat burning

Lets look at some research that supports the fat burning theory, this time from the Oakland Navel Hospital. Impressed with the Kekwick and Pawan success, Frederick Beoit and his associates decided to compare a 1000 calorie, 10-grams-of-carbohydrate, high-fat diet with fasting. Using seven men weighing between 230 and 290 pounds. They used state of the art body composition technology. After ten days, the fasting subjects lost 21 pounds on average, but most of that was lean body weight; only 7.5 pounds was body fat. However on the controlled carbohydrate regimen over the same period of time, 10 of the 14.5 pounds lost was body fat. Think of it. By eating foods low in carbohydrate and high in dietary fat, subjects burned their fat stores almost twice as fast as when they ate nothing at all!

Benoit’s other exciting discovery was that on a fat burning regimen, subjects maintained their potassium levels, while subjects who fasted experienced major potassium losses. (potassium depletion can cause heart arrhythmia, which in severe cases, can be fatal.)

Still not convinced? Try this one. Charlotte Young, professor of clinical nutrition at Cornell University, compared the results of overweight young men placed on three diets, all providing 1800 calories, but with varying degrees of carbohydrate restriction. The regimens contained 30, 60, and 104 grams of carbohydrate, and subjects followed them for nine weeks. Young and her colleagues calculated body fat through a widely accepted technique involving immersion underwater.

Those on the 104 grams of carbs lost slightly better than 2 pounds of fat per week out of 2.73 pounds of total weight loss-not bad for 1800 calories.

Those on 60 grams of carbs lost nearly 2.5 pounds of fat per week out of 3 pounds of actual weight loss-better.

But those on 30 grams of carbs, the only situation that produced lipolysis and the secondary process of ketosis lost 3.73 pounds of fat per week approximately one hundred percent of their total weight loss.

Several other studies have shown that you can consume more calories and lose more weight than on low fat programs.

One study done in Glasgow described overweight women who after three months had lost 14.5 pounds on a thirty-five-percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories and 12.3 pounds on a fifty-eight percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories. That’s fairly slow weight loss and pretty strict caloric deprivation. The advantage went to the lower-carbohydrate diet as always, but the lesson is that stricter carbohydrate control makes for an even more successful weight loss plan.

Two facts should be noted: first, in all cases, the lower carbohydrate group did lose more weight than the higher-carbohydrate group. Second, in two of the studies cardiovascular risk factors improved significantly but only in the subjects who were on a lower carbohydrate intake. The folks who got put on a high-carbohydrate diet showed no significant improvements in these health indicatiors.

That leaves one last study, which was really a blowout. Published in the Journal of Adolescent Health in 2000, it reported on a group of obese adolescents put on a controlled carbohydrate diet with no restriction on calories for three months and meticulously monitored throughout that period. By design the regimen was based on the Atkins approach. The group was compared with a control group put on a low fat diet.

The results? Well, naturally the adolescents lost significantly more weight on the controlled carbohydrate diet than on the low fat diet. The written records indicated that at the end of the trial the adolescents in the controlled carbohydrate group had averaged 1830 calories daily, while the adolescents in the low fat group had consumed 1100 calories. The controlled carbohydrate group averaged 21.7 pounds lost, compared to 9.1 pounds for the low-fat group, and a significant improvement in body mass index (BMI), compared with the low-fat dieters.

As studies like this become increasingly common, opposition to a controlled carbohydrate nutritional approach should fall away even more quickly than has already been the case in recent years.

winger · 07-04-2004, 10:00 PM

Very nice Scottie. That is some good reading. It is the same stuff we keep saying. When it comes to diet it is your choice of carbs and the lack there of. Once agian fat is your friend not the enemy.

Unless it is a female, you can only be friends.

Greyphantom · 08-04-2004, 10:23 AM

Very similar to the body opus diet or the ketosis diet... much prefer the body opus myself as you can eat what you like on the weekends...lol... mmmm simple carbs...

robin_3_16 · 08-04-2004, 12:07 PM

so basically don't eat much carbs but eat whatever the f u c k else you want and you won't lose muscle just fat,
does it matter what types of fats you eat?

Greyphantom · 08-04-2004, 12:47 PM

Yes it does Robin... try to stick to the efas and the like...

robin_3_16 · 08-04-2004, 02:22 PM

efas?
god sorry i know nothing!

winger · 08-04-2004, 03:22 PM

Essential fatty acids. Actually Robin it dosn't matter. Just back off on the carbs and eat what ever you want.

**hackskii** · 08-04-2004, 03:26 PM

Like winger said, it does not really matter and only eat like 20 grams of carbs a day total. You can have as much cheese, bacon, eggs, meat, chicken, pork rinds you want. The weight will fall off fast, really fast. It takes about 3 days to slip into ketosis but once you are in you will shed fat quick.

robin_3_16 · 08-04-2004, 08:19 PM

wow thats a good diet i might have to wait til abit older and buy my own food because my mom will go mad when i only want chicken and meat and cheese etc
but as long as it is only 20g carbs it doesn't matter what you eat!
sounds like my kind of diet!

turbo · 26-04-2004, 11:08 AM

Umm.. the famous Atkins diet, famed for giving people high colesteral whilst making them very lathargic/workout. Shame Dr Atkins died last year of heart problems not least agrevated because he was clinically abese.

Im more of a fan of low-fat diets, keeping the carbs for energy and protien high, same as Arnie advocates. Sure, fat is more calorie dense (9cal per 1g), as opposed to the 4cal per 1g of carbs or protien but the brain & body prefers carbs to fat as its energy source.

Each to their own. If you want to loose weight quickly, then atkins does work. I saw some tests where they got a whole load of people and stuck half them on atkins and half on other diets. In the first 2 weeks the atkins ones lost more weight. But, by the 4 week marker, all the diets had lost exactly the same amount.

winger · 26-04-2004, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbo

Umm.. the famous Atkins diet, famed for giving people high colesteral whilst making them very lathargic/workout. Shame Dr Atkins died last year of heart problems not least agrevated because he was clinically abese.

Im more of a fan of low-fat diets, keeping the carbs for energy and protien high, same as Arnie advocates. Sure, fat is more calorie dense (9cal per 1g), as opposed to the 4cal per 1g of carbs or protien but the brain & body prefers carbs to fat as its energy source.

Each to their own. If you want to loose weight quickly, then atkins does work. I saw some tests where they got a whole load of people and stuck half them on atkins and half on other diets. In the first 2 weeks the atkins ones lost more weight. But, by the 4 week marker, all the diets had lost exactly the same amount.

Sorry Turbo but that is false. The Atkins diet lost more fat than all the other diets. In fact initially the cholesterol did go up at the beginning of the diet then their cholesterol levels lowered dramaticaly. Carbs do give energy but from my experiance if you take to many carbs in or the wrong carbs they will make you tired because of elevated blood sugar and spiking of insulin. With limited carbs you actually feel better.
Atkins died in April last year from a head injury he sustained after falling on an icy New York footpath.

**hackskii** · 26-04-2004, 01:45 PM

He was considered obese because the gain of 60 lbs of water weight from being on an IV in the hospital. He was not overweight when he went into the hospital for brain problems from the fall. It was his critiques that had staged all the misinformation about him to discredit him. Lots of case studys that prove you can lose more fat on high fat diets than high carb diets. If you do want proof then I will spend a night and type up the articles. They were performed by Dr. at acredited hospitals. That was proved by his own people. Atkins himself was a DR. Barry Sears is a Dr. and has a phd and he suggests that obesity in the world today is from processed foods and too much carbohydrate consumption. I know people are opionated about diets and routines but if you keep an open mind to things you just might learn something.

turbo · 26-04-2004, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hackskii

I know people are opionated about diets and routines but if you keep an open mind to things you just might learn something.

Which i do. I spend a huge amount of time researching stuff on the net & in books and so I know my subjects very well.

As I said, the Atkins diet does work, but in the tests I saw, over a 4 week period it wasnt any better, and from the research I did into diets, i personally dont like the high fat diets.

But, again, as i said, each to their own.

**hackskii** · 26-04-2004, 05:29 PM

If it is weight loss then it is weight loss. Not all weight loss is the same. The last thing you want to do is lose lean muscle mass. Case studies I have read tell me that there better muscle sparring on high fat low carb diets than lowering the calories.
But some people have no problems with carbs. Some people do have a problem with carbs and that is about 1/3 the population. You might be one of the lucky ones that can eat all the carbs you want. I am not one of those individules. I was 20 years ago but not now. The older I get the smarter on the diet I have to be. I only wanted to lose like 15 lbs before summer. Then I was going to go on another cycle. I feel good, but the nuts are kindof smaller than normal and it was over 8 weeks sinse last jab. Not concerned yet but dont want to start another cycle without the nuts back.

There is an article in the article section by GreyPhantom on fats.
http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/nutrition-diet-articles/1950-all-about-fats.html
Here is a snip form that.
If you think carbohydrates are the best fuel for muscles and help them grow the fastest, think again!
Al: Dr. Ellis, is there really any debate at all? Everyone knows that carbohydrates are what bodybuilders need, right?
Ellis: Despite what everyone thinks, carbohydrates are not the preferred energy source for the body. Fat is. The common belief that carbohydrates are used most often and provide the best calories for powering muscle contraction is erroneous.

Another snip:

I don’t think that bodybuilders, or anyone else in regular training, need to worry about cholesterol, unless the values begin to exceed 275 mg. Most other people could easily maintain normal, healthy levels by reducing their overweight, over-fat condition.
I think the threshold for dietary carbohydrate reduction to make a positive effect in increasing muscle mass and decreasing body fat begins when carbohydrate intake is reduced to a level lower than 25% of total daily calorie intake. I believe that this level is still too high to realize optimal benefit. I also do not know if 0% carbohydrate intake is more effective than, say, 10% or 15% of daily carbohydrate intake as a caloric percentage of the whole day’s calorie intake.
Many people argue against a high-protein diet as dangerous to the function of the liver and kidneys. There is absolutely no research to support this belief, and in fact, there is an abundance of research indicating that a high-protein diet is very effective in improving liver function. Too often, in the area of nutrition, many studies are don on sick individuals, and there are too few studies on athletes.

**robdog** · 26-04-2004, 06:13 PM

i can see your point hackskki but havent atkins just changed there stance on some of their theories regarding lots off fat. i only saw a snip-it of the report on the news so please forgive me if im wrong. also for a quick fat loss atkins does seem the way to go but i wouldnt want to eat like that for very long because surley its not all that healthy. wouldnt a balanced diet with perhaps lower carbs be better. please forgive my ignorance but im not that clues up on diets etc. cheers

07-04-2004, 09:47 PM	#1 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,696	Trying to lose some fat? Read this! Best way to lose fat and not lose muscle! I typed this up from a book by Atkins. It took some time and there are probably typing errors but bear in mind the information is accurate. I knew that high fat, low carbohydrate diets did produce rapid weight loss but did not have any study groups to compare too. Fat burning Lets look at some research that supports the fat burning theory, this time from the Oakland Navel Hospital. Impressed with the Kekwick and Pawan success, Frederick Beoit and his associates decided to compare a 1000 calorie, 10-grams-of-carbohydrate, high-fat diet with fasting. Using seven men weighing between 230 and 290 pounds. They used state of the art body composition technology. After ten days, the fasting subjects lost 21 pounds on average, but most of that was lean body weight; only 7.5 pounds was body fat. However on the controlled carbohydrate regimen over the same period of time, 10 of the 14.5 pounds lost was body fat. Think of it. By eating foods low in carbohydrate and high in dietary fat, subjects burned their fat stores almost twice as fast as when they ate nothing at all! Benoit’s other exciting discovery was that on a fat burning regimen, subjects maintained their potassium levels, while subjects who fasted experienced major potassium losses. (potassium depletion can cause heart arrhythmia, which in severe cases, can be fatal.) Still not convinced? Try this one. Charlotte Young, professor of clinical nutrition at Cornell University, compared the results of overweight young men placed on three diets, all providing 1800 calories, but with varying degrees of carbohydrate restriction. The regimens contained 30, 60, and 104 grams of carbohydrate, and subjects followed them for nine weeks. Young and her colleagues calculated body fat through a widely accepted technique involving immersion underwater. Those on the 104 grams of carbs lost slightly better than 2 pounds of fat per week out of 2.73 pounds of total weight loss-not bad for 1800 calories. Those on 60 grams of carbs lost nearly 2.5 pounds of fat per week out of 3 pounds of actual weight loss-better. But those on 30 grams of carbs, the only situation that produced lipolysis and the secondary process of ketosis lost 3.73 pounds of fat per week approximately one hundred percent of their total weight loss. Several other studies have shown that you can consume more calories and lose more weight than on low fat programs. One study done in Glasgow described overweight women who after three months had lost 14.5 pounds on a thirty-five-percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories and 12.3 pounds on a fifty-eight percent carbohydrate diet of 1200 calories. That’s fairly slow weight loss and pretty strict caloric deprivation. The advantage went to the lower-carbohydrate diet as always, but the lesson is that stricter carbohydrate control makes for an even more successful weight loss plan. Two facts should be noted: first, in all cases, the lower carbohydrate group did lose more weight than the higher-carbohydrate group. Second, in two of the studies cardiovascular risk factors improved significantly but only in the subjects who were on a lower carbohydrate intake. The folks who got put on a high-carbohydrate diet showed no significant improvements in these health indicatiors. That leaves one last study, which was really a blowout. Published in the Journal of Adolescent Health in 2000, it reported on a group of obese adolescents put on a controlled carbohydrate diet with no restriction on calories for three months and meticulously monitored throughout that period. By design the regimen was based on the Atkins approach. The group was compared with a control group put on a low fat diet. The results? Well, naturally the adolescents lost significantly more weight on the controlled carbohydrate diet than on the low fat diet. The written records indicated that at the end of the trial the adolescents in the controlled carbohydrate group had averaged 1830 calories daily, while the adolescents in the low fat group had consumed 1100 calories. The controlled carbohydrate group averaged 21.7 pounds lost, compared to 9.1 pounds for the low-fat group, and a significant improvement in body mass index (BMI), compared with the low-fat dieters. As studies like this become increasingly common, opposition to a controlled carbohydrate nutritional approach should fall away even more quickly than has already been the case in recent years. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-04-2004, 10:00 PM	#2 (permalink)
winger UK-Muscle Male Animal Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern California, USA Posts: 10,328 Blog Entries: 1	Very nice Scottie. That is some good reading. It is the same stuff we keep saying. When it comes to diet it is your choice of carbs and the lack there of. Once agian fat is your friend not the enemy. Unless it is a female, you can only be friends. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-04-2004, 10:23 AM	#3 (permalink)
Greyphantom Getting HUGE! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,869	Very similar to the body opus diet or the ketosis diet... much prefer the body opus myself as you can eat what you like on the weekends...lol... mmmm simple carbs... __________________ Greyphantom The Ghost who Grows!!!

08-04-2004, 12:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
robin_3_16 Getting HUGE! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: england Posts: 1,461	so basically don't eat much carbs but eat whatever the f u c k else you want and you won't lose muscle just fat, does it matter what types of fats you eat? __________________ Robin

08-04-2004, 12:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
Greyphantom Getting HUGE! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: London Posts: 1,869	Yes it does Robin... try to stick to the efas and the like... __________________ Greyphantom The Ghost who Grows!!!

08-04-2004, 02:22 PM	#6 (permalink)
robin_3_16 Getting HUGE! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: england Posts: 1,461	efas? god sorry i know nothing! __________________ Robin

08-04-2004, 03:22 PM	#7 (permalink)
winger UK-Muscle Male Animal Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Southern California, USA Posts: 10,328 Blog Entries: 1	Essential fatty acids. Actually Robin it dosn't matter. Just back off on the carbs and eat what ever you want. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-04-2004, 03:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,696	Like winger said, it does not really matter and only eat like 20 grams of carbs a day total. You can have as much cheese, bacon, eggs, meat, chicken, pork rinds you want. The weight will fall off fast, really fast. It takes about 3 days to slip into ketosis but once you are in you will shed fat quick. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-04-2004, 08:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
robin_3_16 Getting HUGE! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: england Posts: 1,461	wow thats a good diet i might have to wait til abit older and buy my own food because my mom will go mad when i only want chicken and meat and cheese etc but as long as it is only 20g carbs it doesn't matter what you eat! sounds like my kind of diet! __________________ Robin

26-04-2004, 11:08 AM	#10 (permalink)
turbo Getting HUGE! Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 1,123	Umm.. the famous Atkins diet, famed for giving people high colesteral whilst making them very lathargic/workout. Shame Dr Atkins died last year of heart problems not least agrevated because he was clinically abese. Im more of a fan of low-fat diets, keeping the carbs for energy and protien high, same as Arnie advocates. Sure, fat is more calorie dense (9cal per 1g), as opposed to the 4cal per 1g of carbs or protien but the brain & body prefers carbs to fat as its energy source. Each to their own. If you want to loose weight quickly, then atkins does work. I saw some tests where they got a whole load of people and stuck half them on atkins and half on other diets. In the first 2 weeks the atkins ones lost more weight. But, by the 4 week marker, all the diets had lost exactly the same amount.

26-04-2004, 01:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,696	He was considered obese because the gain of 60 lbs of water weight from being on an IV in the hospital. He was not overweight when he went into the hospital for brain problems from the fall. It was his critiques that had staged all the misinformation about him to discredit him. Lots of case studys that prove you can lose more fat on high fat diets than high carb diets. If you do want proof then I will spend a night and type up the articles. They were performed by Dr. at acredited hospitals. That was proved by his own people. Atkins himself was a DR. Barry Sears is a Dr. and has a phd and he suggests that obesity in the world today is from processed foods and too much carbohydrate consumption. I know people are opionated about diets and routines but if you keep an open mind to things you just might learn something. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

26-04-2004, 05:29 PM	#14 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,696	If it is weight loss then it is weight loss. Not all weight loss is the same. The last thing you want to do is lose lean muscle mass. Case studies I have read tell me that there better muscle sparring on high fat low carb diets than lowering the calories. But some people have no problems with carbs. Some people do have a problem with carbs and that is about 1/3 the population. You might be one of the lucky ones that can eat all the carbs you want. I am not one of those individules. I was 20 years ago but not now. The older I get the smarter on the diet I have to be. I only wanted to lose like 15 lbs before summer. Then I was going to go on another cycle. I feel good, but the nuts are kindof smaller than normal and it was over 8 weeks sinse last jab. Not concerned yet but dont want to start another cycle without the nuts back. There is an article in the article section by GreyPhantom on fats. http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/nutrition-diet-articles/1950-all-about-fats.html Here is a snip form that. If you think carbohydrates are the best fuel for muscles and help them grow the fastest, think again! Al: Dr. Ellis, is there really any debate at all? Everyone knows that carbohydrates are what bodybuilders need, right? Ellis: Despite what everyone thinks, carbohydrates are not the preferred energy source for the body. Fat is. The common belief that carbohydrates are used most often and provide the best calories for powering muscle contraction is erroneous. Another snip: I don’t think that bodybuilders, or anyone else in regular training, need to worry about cholesterol, unless the values begin to exceed 275 mg. Most other people could easily maintain normal, healthy levels by reducing their overweight, over-fat condition. I think the threshold for dietary carbohydrate reduction to make a positive effect in increasing muscle mass and decreasing body fat begins when carbohydrate intake is reduced to a level lower than 25% of total daily calorie intake. I believe that this level is still too high to realize optimal benefit. I also do not know if 0% carbohydrate intake is more effective than, say, 10% or 15% of daily carbohydrate intake as a caloric percentage of the whole day’s calorie intake. Many people argue against a high-protein diet as dangerous to the function of the liver and kidneys. There is absolutely no research to support this belief, and in fact, there is an abundance of research indicating that a high-protein diet is very effective in improving liver function. Too often, in the area of nutrition, many studies are don on sick individuals, and there are too few studies on athletes. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

26-04-2004, 06:13 PM	#15 (permalink)
robdog UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Home!! Posts: 5,701	i can see your point hackskki but havent atkins just changed there stance on some of their theories regarding lots off fat. i only saw a snip-it of the report on the news so please forgive me if im wrong. also for a quick fat loss atkins does seem the way to go but i wouldnt want to eat like that for very long because surley its not all that healthy. wouldnt a balanced diet with perhaps lower carbs be better. please forgive my ignorance but im not that clues up on diets etc. cheers