PWO, vinegar and glycogen replenishment - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

**hackskii** · 30-10-2006, 06:02 PM

After doing a lot of reading recently I wanted to bring some things to light about PWO shakes.
Many of you use simple sugars PWO and have for years.
But due to the fact that you are insulin sensitive and add whey to a carbohydrate I think the response you get from being insulin sensitive is enough of a response to do what you are looking for using complex carbohydrates, not to mention whey will aid in the raising of the GI.

I feel simple sugars are not productive and offer little if any nutritional value. Not only that but simple sugars push you towards being more insulin resistant than anything else.

There is enough information flying around on the what causes a bigger insulin spike thread that I posted which suggest simple sugars are not needed.

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.
Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

Many more on that thread: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet...hlight=insulin starting I think on like page two.

But what if there was something that we could take to make this process more efficient?
Lets say using something that aids in glycogen replenishment while stopping carbohydrates use for fuel and tapping into fat for fuel leaving more glycogen for storage?
I do believe I found something that will fit this mold.

Here are some studies on that.
Int J Sports Med 2002 Apr;23(3):218-22 Related Articles, Links

The efficacy of acetic acid for glycogen repletion in rat skeletal muscle after exercise.

Fushimi T, Tayama K, Fukaya M, Kitakoshi K, Nakai N, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y.

Central Research Institute, Mitsukan Group Co. Ltd., Handa, Japan. tfushimi@mitsukan.co.jp

We examined the effect of acetic acid, the main component of vinegar, on glycogen repletion by using swimming-exercised rats. Rats were trained for 7 days by swimming. After an overnight fast, they were subjected to a 2-hr swimming exercise. Immediately afterward, they were given by gavage 2 ml of one of the following solutions: 30 % glucose only or 30 % glucose with 0.4 % acetic acid. Rats were sacrificed by decapitation before, immediately after exercise and 2 hours after the feeding. Exercise significantly decreased soleus and gastrocnemius glycogen content, and feeding significantly increased liver, soleus and gastrocnemius glycogen content. In soleus muscle, acetate feeding significantly increased glycogen content and the ratio of glycogen synthase in the I form (means +/- SEM: 4.04 +/- 0.41 mg/g-tissue and 47.0 +/- 0.7 %, respectively) in contrast to no acetate feeding (3.04 +/- 0.29 mg/g-tissue and 38.1 +/- 3.4 %, respectively). Thus, these findings suggest that the feeding of glucose with acetic acid can more speedily accelerate glycogen repletion in skeletal muscle than can glucose only.

PMID: 11914987 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Here is another one:

Acetic acid feeding enhances glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle of rats.

Fushimi T, Tayama K, Fukaya M, Kitakoshi K, Nakai N, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y.

Central Research Institute, Mitsukan Group Company Limited, Handa 475-8585, Japan. tfushimi@mitsukan.co.jp

To investigate the efficacy of the ingestion of vinegar in aiding recovery from fatigue, we examined the effect of dietary acetic acid, the main component of vinegar, on glycogen repletion in rats. Rats were allowed access to a commercial diet twice daily for 6 d. After 15 h of food deprivation, they were either killed immediately or given 2 g of a diet containing 0 (control), 0.1, 0.2 or 0.4 g acetic acid/100 g diet for 2 h. The 0.2 g acetic acid group had significantly greater liver and gastrocnemius muscle glycogen concentration than the control group (P < 0.05). The concentrations of citrate in this group in both the liver and skeletal muscles were >1.3-fold greater than in the control group (P > 0.1). In liver, the concentration of xylulose-5-phosphate in the control group was significantly higher than in the 0.2 and 0.4 g acetic acid groups (P < 0.01). In gastrocnemius muscle, the concentration of glucose-6-phosphate in the control group was significantly lower and the ratio of fructose-1,6-bisphosphate/fructose-6-phosphate was significantly higher than in the 0.2 g acetic acid group (P < 0.05). This ratio in the soleus muscle of the acetic acid fed groups was <0.8-fold that of the control group (P > 0.1). In liver, acetic acid may activate gluconeogenesis and inactivate glycolysis through inactivation of fructose-2,6-bisphosphate synthesis due to suppression of xylulose-5-phosphate accumulation. In skeletal muscle, acetic acid may inhibit glycolysis by suppression of phosphofructokinase-1 activity. We conclude that a diet containing acetic acid may enhance glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle.

PMID: 11435516

It is acetic acid or the substance in Vinegar.
But not all vinegar is created equal, apple cider vinegar has been used for years in dieting and as far back as I can ever remember maybe even in the 1960’s I remember people adding apple cider vinegar to their diet.
If that is not enough there is a apple cider vinegar that is unfiltered, organic and is in its raw state with all the enzymes, it is cheap and on every shelf and even comes in tablet and liquid form.
The stuff I have is by Bragg.

What else does it do besides in aiding in glycogen replenishment PWO?
Helps maintain a youthful skin and vibrant body
Helps remove artery plaque
Helps fight germs, viruses and bacteria naturally
Helps regulate calcium metabolism
Helps to keep the blood the right consistency
Helps regulate woman’s menstruation
Helps normalize the urine PH, thus relieving the frequent urge to urinate
Helps digestion, assimilation and balances PH
Helps relieve sore throats, laryngitis and throat tickles and cleans out toxins
Helps sinus, asthma and flue suffers to breathe easier.
Helps banish acne, sooths burns and sunburns
Helps prevent itching scalp, bladness and dry hair and banishes dandruff
Helps figh arthritis and removes crystals and toxins from joints, tissues and organs
Helps control and normalize weight.

Ok, first thing I noticed when I took this product I felt less bloated.
I just started it on Saturday and used it with my protein, carb, creatine and vinegar in my drink. Not too bad.
Last night I used it on my salad along with extra virgin olive oil and some garlic powder and sea salt. It was very tasty actually

Took some on an empty stomach this morning with water and almost immediately felt a little nauseous and I didn’t like the way I felt for a few minutes.

Some even feel that at the addition to citric acid (lemon juice) it might even be more effective in glucose storing.

What I like are the implications here of better health, better glycogen storing, better fat burning, the ability to use a complex carb and stay more insulin sensitive (this should be everyone’s goal).
I bet one would be less inclined to go hypo as well. Judging by some of the dudes feeling dizzy during contest prep I am having a very good feeling about this.

I just bought the Book by Bragg on Apple Cider Vinegar and its benefits so I will update after I have done some pounding in this book.
This stuff is dirt cheap and would only cost pennies.
There is a formula for how much to take but I just pour about a half a shot glass or maybe a tad bit more and take it.

This would be a good experiment for the competitors to have that added little edge.

Tatyana · 31-10-2006, 01:45 AM

I always thought that the insulin spike post work-out (and the combo of whey and simple carbs gives the biggest spike) was to transport more amino acids into the muscle for repair, therefore more muscle growth.

All those studies were focusing on glycogen storage.

This is what I have heard, take whey and simple carbs immediately post workout to build muscle, wait an hour if you want to burn fat.

X
x
x

T

**hackskii** · 31-10-2006, 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana

I always thought that the insulin spike post work-out (and the combo of whey and simple carbs gives the biggest spike) was to transport more amino acids into the muscle for repair, therefore more muscle growth.

All those studies were focusing on glycogen storage.

This is what I have heard, take whey and simple carbs immediately post workout to build muscle, wait an hour if you want to burn fat.

X
x
x

T

But PWO you are already insulin sensitive.

Which Has a stronger transport between insulin sensitivity or high GI carbs PWO?

Are fast acting carbs in nature?
What is it used for?

Sorry, I am in the question and answer mode right now.
Sorry.....

What if PH was an issue?

Tatyana · 31-10-2006, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hackskii

But PWO you are already insulin sensitive.

Which Has a stronger transport between insulin sensitivity or high GI carbs PWO? I don't understand this question, insulin mobilises glucose transporters, carbs and some amino acids cause insulin to be released?

Are fast acting carbs in nature? Yes, honey, maple syrup, off the top of my head.
What is it used for?

Sorry, I am in the question and answer mode right now.
Sorry.....

What if PH was an issue? What is PH?

x
x
x

T

**hackskii** · 31-10-2006, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tatyana

I always thought that the insulin spike post work-out (and the combo of whey and simple carbs gives the biggest spike) was to transport more amino acids into the muscle for repair, therefore more muscle growth.

All those studies were focusing on glycogen storage.

This is what I have heard, take whey and simple carbs immediately post workout to build muscle, wait an hour if you want to burn fat.

X
x
x

T

Those studies show that you dont need more insulin to do the job.
Why risk being insulin resistant by using such fast acting carbs and especially the refined ones that most use?

I seriously doubt that using simple sugar PWO and some protein will build bigger muscles than complex carbs and some protein.

If anything that spike of extra insulin will drive blood sugar levels too low making you hungry in no time.

Ok with this statement in the study do you really feel that a huge insulin spike is going to be more productive?
Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes.

If this is in fact correct then how could your arguement of simple sugers and protein be a requirement?

I just think that the fast acting carb deal that has been going around forever is just kind of tribal knowledge and everyone does it, so every one does it.

I think this would put one at risk of being more insulin resistant and its not even required.

On another note, I had some apple cider vinegar and some black strap molasses and when I tested my pH ("parts of hydrogen") with litmus paper I was more alkaline. The body preferes an alkaline environment over an acidic one.
An acidic body provides an atmosphere that cancer and other diseases can grow and thrive in.

ONE SMART COOKIE · 01-11-2006, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Those studies show that you dont need more insulin to do the job.
Why risk being insulin resistant by using such fast acting carbs and especially the refined ones that most use?

I seriously doubt that using simple sugar PWO and some protein will build bigger muscles than complex carbs and some protein.

If anything that spike of extra insulin will drive blood sugar levels too low making you hungry in no time.

And so the cycle again is complete:rolleye11

Bbers in the early years used to just eat food postworkout and that study has just proved what they knew instinctively 70+ years ago:lift:

30-10-2006, 06:02 PM	#1 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,697	PWO, vinegar and glycogen replenishment After doing a lot of reading recently I wanted to bring some things to light about PWO shakes. Many of you use simple sugars PWO and have for years. But due to the fact that you are insulin sensitive and add whey to a carbohydrate I think the response you get from being insulin sensitive is enough of a response to do what you are looking for using complex carbohydrates, not to mention whey will aid in the raising of the GI. I feel simple sugars are not productive and offer little if any nutritional value. Not only that but simple sugars push you towards being more insulin resistant than anything else. There is enough information flying around on the what causes a bigger insulin spike thread that I posted which suggest simple sugars are not needed. Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery. Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A. Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK. The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise. Many more on that thread: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/food-diet...hlight=insulin starting I think on like page two. But what if there was something that we could take to make this process more efficient? Lets say using something that aids in glycogen replenishment while stopping carbohydrates use for fuel and tapping into fat for fuel leaving more glycogen for storage? I do believe I found something that will fit this mold. Here are some studies on that. Int J Sports Med 2002 Apr;23(3):218-22 Related Articles, Links The efficacy of acetic acid for glycogen repletion in rat skeletal muscle after exercise. Fushimi T, Tayama K, Fukaya M, Kitakoshi K, Nakai N, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y. Central Research Institute, Mitsukan Group Co. Ltd., Handa, Japan. tfushimi@mitsukan.co.jp We examined the effect of acetic acid, the main component of vinegar, on glycogen repletion by using swimming-exercised rats. Rats were trained for 7 days by swimming. After an overnight fast, they were subjected to a 2-hr swimming exercise. Immediately afterward, they were given by gavage 2 ml of one of the following solutions: 30 % glucose only or 30 % glucose with 0.4 % acetic acid. Rats were sacrificed by decapitation before, immediately after exercise and 2 hours after the feeding. Exercise significantly decreased soleus and gastrocnemius glycogen content, and feeding significantly increased liver, soleus and gastrocnemius glycogen content. In soleus muscle, acetate feeding significantly increased glycogen content and the ratio of glycogen synthase in the I form (means +/- SEM: 4.04 +/- 0.41 mg/g-tissue and 47.0 +/- 0.7 %, respectively) in contrast to no acetate feeding (3.04 +/- 0.29 mg/g-tissue and 38.1 +/- 3.4 %, respectively). Thus, these findings suggest that the feeding of glucose with acetic acid can more speedily accelerate glycogen repletion in skeletal muscle than can glucose only. PMID: 11914987 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE] Here is another one: Acetic acid feeding enhances glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle of rats. Fushimi T, Tayama K, Fukaya M, Kitakoshi K, Nakai N, Tsukamoto Y, Sato Y. Central Research Institute, Mitsukan Group Company Limited, Handa 475-8585, Japan. tfushimi@mitsukan.co.jp To investigate the efficacy of the ingestion of vinegar in aiding recovery from fatigue, we examined the effect of dietary acetic acid, the main component of vinegar, on glycogen repletion in rats. Rats were allowed access to a commercial diet twice daily for 6 d. After 15 h of food deprivation, they were either killed immediately or given 2 g of a diet containing 0 (control), 0.1, 0.2 or 0.4 g acetic acid/100 g diet for 2 h. The 0.2 g acetic acid group had significantly greater liver and gastrocnemius muscle glycogen concentration than the control group (P < 0.05). The concentrations of citrate in this group in both the liver and skeletal muscles were >1.3-fold greater than in the control group (P > 0.1). In liver, the concentration of xylulose-5-phosphate in the control group was significantly higher than in the 0.2 and 0.4 g acetic acid groups (P < 0.01). In gastrocnemius muscle, the concentration of glucose-6-phosphate in the control group was significantly lower and the ratio of fructose-1,6-bisphosphate/fructose-6-phosphate was significantly higher than in the 0.2 g acetic acid group (P < 0.05). This ratio in the soleus muscle of the acetic acid fed groups was <0.8-fold that of the control group (P > 0.1). In liver, acetic acid may activate gluconeogenesis and inactivate glycolysis through inactivation of fructose-2,6-bisphosphate synthesis due to suppression of xylulose-5-phosphate accumulation. In skeletal muscle, acetic acid may inhibit glycolysis by suppression of phosphofructokinase-1 activity. We conclude that a diet containing acetic acid may enhance glycogen repletion in liver and skeletal muscle. PMID: 11435516 It is acetic acid or the substance in Vinegar. But not all vinegar is created equal, apple cider vinegar has been used for years in dieting and as far back as I can ever remember maybe even in the 1960’s I remember people adding apple cider vinegar to their diet. If that is not enough there is a apple cider vinegar that is unfiltered, organic and is in its raw state with all the enzymes, it is cheap and on every shelf and even comes in tablet and liquid form. The stuff I have is by Bragg. What else does it do besides in aiding in glycogen replenishment PWO? Helps maintain a youthful skin and vibrant body Helps remove artery plaque Helps fight germs, viruses and bacteria naturally Helps regulate calcium metabolism Helps to keep the blood the right consistency Helps regulate woman’s menstruation Helps normalize the urine PH, thus relieving the frequent urge to urinate Helps digestion, assimilation and balances PH Helps relieve sore throats, laryngitis and throat tickles and cleans out toxins Helps sinus, asthma and flue suffers to breathe easier. Helps banish acne, sooths burns and sunburns Helps prevent itching scalp, bladness and dry hair and banishes dandruff Helps figh arthritis and removes crystals and toxins from joints, tissues and organs Helps control and normalize weight. Ok, first thing I noticed when I took this product I felt less bloated. I just started it on Saturday and used it with my protein, carb, creatine and vinegar in my drink. Not too bad. Last night I used it on my salad along with extra virgin olive oil and some garlic powder and sea salt. It was very tasty actually Took some on an empty stomach this morning with water and almost immediately felt a little nauseous and I didn’t like the way I felt for a few minutes. Some even feel that at the addition to citric acid (lemon juice) it might even be more effective in glucose storing. What I like are the implications here of better health, better glycogen storing, better fat burning, the ability to use a complex carb and stay more insulin sensitive (this should be everyone’s goal). I bet one would be less inclined to go hypo as well. Judging by some of the dudes feeling dizzy during contest prep I am having a very good feeling about this. I just bought the Book by Bragg on Apple Cider Vinegar and its benefits so I will update after I have done some pounding in this book. This stuff is dirt cheap and would only cost pennies. There is a formula for how much to take but I just pour about a half a shot glass or maybe a tad bit more and take it. This would be a good experiment for the competitors to have that added little edge. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

31-10-2006, 01:45 AM	#2 (permalink)
Tatyana My name is EARL Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: On my bloody bike doing cardio Posts: 3,463	I always thought that the insulin spike post work-out (and the combo of whey and simple carbs gives the biggest spike) was to transport more amino acids into the muscle for repair, therefore more muscle growth. All those studies were focusing on glycogen storage. This is what I have heard, take whey and simple carbs immediately post workout to build muscle, wait an hour if you want to burn fat. X x x T