Flax, fish oils, or Udo's - Page 3 - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

andr0lic · 23-08-2007, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nytol

Excellent stuff!

I found Krill oil to be excellent.

It is.

But I stress the NKO brand(not name brand, brand of sourced oil) as it has the highest amount of phospholipids(omega's) and NATURAL(not synthetic) astaxanthin(search this word on google and read up on it for 10 minutes). I guarantee you will want to try krill in favor is fish oil and once you switch you won't ever go back. I once had someone debate me that you need more than 1 or two grams a day of omega-3's for optimal function. I rebutted by asking him what would he rather take 500 milligrams of s isomer alpha-lipoic acid or 100 mgs. of potassium corrected R-isomer ALA? Why take more of a lesser effective substance? That's like gobbling primo tabs as opposed to just injecting a fraction of the amount with much better results overall.

ORAC(anti-oxidant potency rating):

fish oil:8
lycopene: 58
krill oil: 378

It's so potent, that if I take more than 2 grams per day(usually only take 1.5), I notice symptoms of the aforementioned high dose fish oil intake.
Excellent for breakouts too(as in a thing of the past) The difference between krill and fish oil is like comparing synthetic store-bought vitamin E to high-gamma mixed tocopherol E. Lights out, Game over.

-Andy

Tony Barnes · 23-08-2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hackskii

Man, I love the direction of the posts here on the thread, oh man, I am in heaven learning and reasoning.

From personal experiance.
I take 12 fish oils a day and after 3 months I noticed that my urination and flow (p1ss) was much stronger. I was confused at this until I found something on the net that supported my assumptions.
First it is well known that fish oils aid in inflammation.
Second fish oils aid in PG1 and PG3 prostaglandin production. Omega 3 only makes series 3 - series 1 come from GLA in the omega 6 family
With that said the most prostaglandins in the body reside in the prostate.
With fish oils anti-inflammation properties it made much sense that this was the reason as I did nothing diffrent.

So from personal experiance i love fish oils

Tony Barnes · 23-08-2007, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andr0lic

With regard to prostaglandin inhibition, I have noticed that when i supplement in excess of 6 or 7 grams of fish oil a day, I start to lose some of my size and fullness, especially post-workout, when Prostaglandin formation is so important. Over the years using and experimenting with many different doses of fish oil, I've found for me, that too much fish-oil is counter-intuitive to acheiving the desired anabolic state. My eyes don't lie, and the outcome is the same repeatedly whenever i dose too high on my Omega-3's. The correlation could be drawn with 100% pure cherry juice or ibuprofen. yes they will lower inflammation to a degree but if too much is administered, the decrease in prostaglandin activity then becomes deletrious. In contrast, no matter how much flax oil i have ever used, i've never encountered the reduced fullness and muscle-wasting effects as seen with high dose fish oil. let that be a testament to the inefficacy of flax oil as an omega-3 supplement.

When you are taking flax, you are also taking in LA (omega 6 parent EFA), which then promotes series 1, and potentially, series 2 prostaglandin formation. This will probably underline the difference you have mentioned, as opposed to flax being innefectual.

(the series 2 formation is down regulated by series 1 & 3 prostaglandins, however, it will provide for more substrate - i.e. AA, which itself is seen as useful for growth - though I'm not certain that recent AA supplements are heading in the right direction)

I hadn't heard about cherry juice before - maybe that's why I didn't burn in Turkey a few years ago when I was drinking tonnes of the stuff...

I would bet that a lot of you out there who reduced your fish oil intake back to 6 or so grams a day would allow yourselves to reap the maximum benefits of its anti-inflammatory and hormonal optimizing effects.

-Andy Androlic

Tony Barnes · 23-08-2007, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andr0lic

It is.

But I stress the NKO brand(not name brand, brand of sourced oil) as it has the highest amount of phospholipids(omega's) and NATURAL(not synthetic) astaxanthin(search this word on google and read up on it for 10 minutes). I guarantee you will want to try krill in favor is fish oil and once you switch you won't ever go back. I once had someone debate me that you need more than 1 or two grams a day of omega-3's for optimal function. I rebutted by asking him what would he rather take 500 milligrams of s isomer alpha-lipoic acid or 100 mgs. of potassium corrected R-isomer ALA? Why take more of a lesser effective substance? That's like gobbling primo tabs as opposed to just injecting a fraction of the amount with much better results overall.

ORAC(anti-oxidant potency rating):

fish oil:8
lycopene: 58
krill oil: 378

It's so potent, that if I take more than 2 grams per day(usually only take 1.5), I notice symptoms of the aforementioned high dose fish oil intake.
Excellent for breakouts too(as in a thing of the past) The difference between krill and fish oil is like comparing synthetic store-bought vitamin E to high-gamma mixed tocopherol E. Lights out, Game over.

-Andy

Fully agree with this.

**Nytol** · 23-08-2007, 12:10 PM

http://www.mercola.com/products/krill_oil.htm

This was the brand I used.

Tony Barnes · 23-08-2007, 12:50 PM

Can't tell from that if it's NKO - uses their research, so would hope so. Is there a little NKO logo on the tub somewhere?

**Nytol** · 23-08-2007, 01:31 PM

Yes it is NKO, nice to see it is available in the UK now though, even if it is more expensive, :(

Tony Barnes · 23-08-2007, 01:41 PM

Yeah, although strictly speaking it's still illegal to sell in the UK, as it doesn't have European novel food status yet...

Should be sorted by end of September from what I hear, but some places are selling already.

anabolic lion · 23-08-2007, 04:10 PM

is this the stuff ?

http://www.reflex-nutrition.com/spor...ment_107_6.php

Tony Barnes · 23-08-2007, 05:29 PM

Yup

:whistle:

**hackskii** · 23-08-2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andr0lic

With regard to prostaglandin inhibition, I have noticed that when i supplement in excess of 6 or 7 grams of fish oil a day, I start to lose some of my size and fullness, especially post-workout, when Prostaglandin formation is so important. Over the years using and experimenting with many different doses of fish oil, I've found for me, that too much fish-oil is counter-intuitive to acheiving the desired anabolic state. My eyes don't lie, and the outcome is the same repeatedly whenever i dose too high on my Omega-3's. The correlation could be drawn with 100% pure cherry juice or ibuprofen. yes they will lower inflammation to a degree but if too much is administered, the decrease in prostaglandin activity then becomes deletrious. In contrast, no matter how much flax oil i have ever used, i've never encountered the reduced fullness and muscle-wasting effects as seen with high dose fish oil. let that be a testament to the inefficacy of flax oil as an omega-3 supplement.

I would bet that a lot of you out there who reduced your fish oil intake back to 6 or so grams a day would allow yourselves to reap the maximum benefits of its anti-inflammatory and hormonal optimizing effects.

-Andy Androlic

Funny you should mention.
X-Faxtor comes to mind here.
Said to be anabolic due to its AA content
Not something I would want to do tho.

I hear you andy on anti-inflammatory drugs. My dog has double hip displasia and osteoarthritus.
I give her some very strong anti-inflammatory drug called Metacam.
I noticed she lost alot of her muscle in her hind quarters when I put her on that.

So, yes you are correct in the inflammatory responce to anabolisim.
I am surprised you figured that one out by youself, most people would never notice this.

**hackskii** · 23-08-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony Barnes

Omega 3 only makes series 3 - series 1 come from GLA in the omega 6 family

My bad, It was something I read years ago, thanks for clearing that one up.
Thanks Tony.

Fish oils will also decrease arachidonic acid formation and therefore also decrease PGE2 formation.

thestudbeast · 23-08-2007, 08:55 PM

Quote:

X-Faxtor comes to mind here.
Said to be anabolic due to its AA content

I looked into this after reading many, many good logs on x-factor and decided against when looking into AA. The makers of x-factor suggest you don't take any omega 3 on it as it suppreses the inflamitory effect of AA. The call it the component of red meat that makes you grow but it seems to be more present in liver. I also saw AA linked to cancer? Well that was the end of my research into this product.

So Tony can I ask why you think AA is not a good idea supplemented? Is it for the reasons above or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

andr0lic · 23-08-2007, 09:02 PM

Mercola is known to be overpriced from what I've read around the boards, and anyone who knows him, knows he is a snake(or so i hear).

Google: Source Naturals NKO. their product is the best IMO and is usually one of the cheapest krill around if sourced through the proper reseller.

The cheapest best source of NKO on the net though would have to be NOW's brand on BB.com. unfortunately this isnt an option for most of you because of the shipping, but they offer the same amount of NKO for about USD10 cheaper, so maybe int'l shipping would be moot. Most of my staples are from NOW because they are such a huge company(c-GMP certified), they have the buying power to cut everyone elses throat on prices with equal or better quality.

BTW, props to Tony for informing us of his affiliations.

andr0lic · 23-08-2007, 09:18 PM

While I can't hang with Tony's technical savvy, I will say that I have always ascribed to the theory of taking your omegas seperately as they counteract one another(omega-9 is discluded). That is not to say that they cannot be absorbed at all if taken with the 6's, but why not be sure? We already take in so much 6 through so many food sources that it would seem prudent to take the 3 seperated by a period of hours. I always have and always will, but again, that's just me, and the relevance of me saying this is that udo's is blended oils, and that is a flawed formula for this reason alone.

An interesting thing I just learned six months ago, is that bioavailability of 3 is increased when taken with additional fat. A SMALL amount of butter is excellent as it has next to no 6's, as is ex. virgin olive oil as it is predominantly 9's which do not interfere with absorbtion rates. I always used to take my fish oil with a basically fatless meal as to avoid any decreased availability but now I take it with said fats at mealtime as this is a very delicate substance we're talking about, and we want to maximize its assimilation and utility in the body.

-Andy

23-08-2007, 12:10 PM	#35 (permalink)
Nytol UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,753	Re: Flax, fish oils, or Udo's http://www.mercola.com/products/krill_oil.htm This was the brand I used. __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

23-08-2007, 12:50 PM	#36 (permalink)
Tony Barnes Gym Addict Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 106	Re: Flax, fish oils, or Udo's Can't tell from that if it's NKO - uses their research, so would hope so. Is there a little NKO logo on the tub somewhere?

23-08-2007, 01:31 PM	#37 (permalink)
Nytol UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: UK Posts: 3,753	Re: Flax, fish oils, or Udo's Yes it is NKO, nice to see it is available in the UK now though, even if it is more expensive, :( __________________ To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

23-08-2007, 01:41 PM	#38 (permalink)
Tony Barnes Gym Addict Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 106	Re: Flax, fish oils, or Udo's Yeah, although strictly speaking it's still illegal to sell in the UK, as it doesn't have European novel food status yet... Should be sorted by end of September from what I hear, but some places are selling already.

23-08-2007, 04:10 PM	#39 (permalink)
anabolic lion Gym Addict Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: West london Posts: 252	Re: Flax, fish oils, or Udo's is this the stuff ? http://www.reflex-nutrition.com/spor...ment_107_6.php

23-08-2007, 05:29 PM	#40 (permalink)
Tony Barnes Gym Addict Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 106	Re: Flax, fish oils, or Udo's Yup :whistle:

23-08-2007, 09:02 PM	#44 (permalink)
andr0lic all up in me bird's gutty-wuts Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Jersey - the New one Posts: 145	Re: Flax, fish oils, or Udo's Mercola is known to be overpriced from what I've read around the boards, and anyone who knows him, knows he is a snake(or so i hear). Google: Source Naturals NKO. their product is the best IMO and is usually one of the cheapest krill around if sourced through the proper reseller. The cheapest best source of NKO on the net though would have to be NOW's brand on BB.com. unfortunately this isnt an option for most of you because of the shipping, but they offer the same amount of NKO for about USD10 cheaper, so maybe int'l shipping would be moot. Most of my staples are from NOW because they are such a huge company(c-GMP certified), they have the buying power to cut everyone elses throat on prices with equal or better quality. BTW, props to Tony for informing us of his affiliations. __________________ Gather ye rosebuds while ye may, Old time is still a-flying; And this sweet flower that blooms today, Tomorrow will soon be dying Last edited by andr0lic; 23-08-2007 at 09:07 PM.

23-08-2007, 09:18 PM	#45 (permalink)
andr0lic all up in me bird's gutty-wuts Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Jersey - the New one Posts: 145	Re: Flax, fish oils, or Udo's While I can't hang with Tony's technical savvy, I will say that I have always ascribed to the theory of taking your omegas seperately as they counteract one another(omega-9 is discluded). That is not to say that they cannot be absorbed at all if taken with the 6's, but why not be sure? We already take in so much 6 through so many food sources that it would seem prudent to take the 3 seperated by a period of hours. I always have and always will, but again, that's just me, and the relevance of me saying this is that udo's is blended oils, and that is a flawed formula for this reason alone. An interesting thing I just learned six months ago, is that bioavailability of 3 is increased when taken with additional fat. A SMALL amount of butter is excellent as it has next to no 6's, as is ex. virgin olive oil as it is predominantly 9's which do not interfere with absorbtion rates. I always used to take my fish oil with a basically fatless meal as to avoid any decreased availability but now I take it with said fats at mealtime as this is a very delicate substance we're talking about, and we want to maximize its assimilation and utility in the body. -Andy __________________ Gather ye rosebuds while ye may, Old time is still a-flying; And this sweet flower that blooms today, Tomorrow will soon be dying

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