Tinytom

Currently I am having 100g of fats a day

40g from Udos

20g From EPA Fish OIls

rest from nuts and lecithin.

This works well for me. I like the addition of extra Fish Oils as a facilitator for fat loss.

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Tony Barnes

[rolls sleeves]

Right, as I'm pretty new to posting on this board, for full transparency I'll let you all know work for Savant - the UK importers of Udo's Choice.

Now, the next point is that you cannot directly compare Udo's Choice and Fish oils - there are fundamentally different in that Udo's provides the short chain omega 3's and 6's, LNA and LA, whilst fish oils provide the long chain omega 3 derivatives EPA and DHA. As the long chain derivatives cannot be converted back to the short chain parent EFAs, and there is little/no omega 6 in fish oil, they are clearly quite different to start with.

The effects are different too. LA and LNA are used intracellularly for structural roles in organelles, etc, and in membranes. EPA and DHA are predominantly used in membranes of nervous tissues. LA and LNA when use together can produce all 3 series of eicosanoids/prostaglandins following conversion. EPA/DHA can only contribute to series 3. Series 3 prostaglandins primary function is to prevent the release of series 2 prostaglandins from AA, which is why they have an anti-inflammatory effect. However, series 1 prostaglandins that come from DGLA, which requires LA or GLA in the diet, have many more roles in that field. The on-conversion of AA to series 2 prostaglandins is blocked/slowed by both series 1 and 3 prostaglandins - by preventing it's release from membranes.

So fish oils stop AA release and series 2 prostaglandin formation by promoting series 3 prostaglandin formation, whilst seed oils stop AA release/series 2 prostaglandin formation, and promote series 1 and 3 prostaglandin formation.

Conversion to lcPUFAS is an ugly stick that is waved around happily by anyone who wants to disprove the usefullness of seed oils. Conversion of LNA is in the region of 5-10% for EPA and 2-5% to DHA - more in women. Every paper I've seen conversion rates being calculated in are using a typical damaged omega 6 heavy diet (e.g. adding in canola oil/margarine/etc) - with ratios around 10:1 omega 6:3 often being used. As the short chain fatty acids all use the same enzymes for conversion, it's accepted that if you have a lot more of one, the other isn't going to have a great time of getting converted. If you pull the ratio of omega 6:3 closer to 1:1, then more LNA will get converted to the lcPUFAs - assuming that is the be all and end all. This is dependant on issues like availbility of co-factors such biotin, b vits, mins, etc; the issue of damaged fats blocking delta 4/5/6 desaturase; other factors such as alcohol; and then people with specific enzymatic blocks ~ 2% of the population.

Amounts-wise, well, some of the levels of fish oil intake I've been hearing of late are vast, and well above what the manufacturers say you need to use to get the benefit. Working with normal levels, a reccommendation of 15ml/25kg Udo's will cover long chain conversion using the lowest/most bleak figures available. EPA and DHA both block the conversion of LNA through to themselves in a negative feedback loop. If your body craved endless amounts of the latter, why would it have mechanisms in place to prevent the over production of it?

The concern over what happens to the ratios in a diet generally tend to not be based on actually working it out. e.g prior to adding Udos, Mr X has 1g of omega 3 and 20g of omega 6 in his normal diet. He then adds in 60ml of Udos. He now has 33g of omega 3 and 35g of omega 6 in his diet. i.e. it has shifted to being closer to 1:1. Following your example, sticking in 12g of fish oil, he would now have 13g (probably less, depends on the oils) of omega 3 and 20g of omega 6 - a ratio of 1:1.5.

The idea is that Udo's can be used as your only added fat source if that's what you chose, without running the risk of over-doing omega 3.

Regarding NKO Krill oil - it's good stuff. I actually use it myself. Before anyone jumps on me shouting hypocrite, there's 2 reasons:

1. I've always had an issue with dry skin/eczema, not horrific, but annoying at points. When I first started on Udo's it cleared all of it up, apart from 1 small patch on my left forearm that persisted. When we got some NKO in, I tried it and it cleared it up. This is an indication of a degree of blocking of conversion - whether it was diet/alcohol/genetic, dunno, as my diet and drinking have changed greatly over the last few years, and indeed the NKO may no longer be doing squat for my skin.

2. I've also got ankylosing spondylitis. The astaxanthin in NKO is a bloody brilliant anti-inflammatory, and great for people with arthritic conditions. It's also why I eat a lot of prawns/shrimp as they have it in them too (it's the reason they turn pink when cooked, as it unbinds from proteins). If it was possible, i'd probably eat flamingos too...

Anyways, the crux is, seed oils as a base so that you get the whole spread of benefits, and also energy, etc, and fish oils used as appropriate.

toxictoffee

great post tony

will bump this for when you leave savant and focus a little more on the crux, EPA/DHA requirements that cannot be sourced in the diet unlike all other ingredients of UDOs

great post though mate, i shall respond to some more bits whe i get home later

bottom line?

NKO or EPA/DHA is ideally sourced in the diet and 90% of serious BBers diets do not include dmaged n6 fats = UDOs lot of money. little worth

ps tom, add 400iu of vit E every day if you are not

any how im off to see one of my inuit friends to sell him some UDOs based on Tonys post

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Tony Barnes

lol, cheers bud.

As you know we only got into the BB 'cos people were coming to us asking for sponsorship ;)

I do agree though, it's not a cheap way to do things, but it is an easy one, and the results can't be knocked.

One thing I forgot to add was I find it highly amusing/ironic that fish and now krill are seen to be the best suppliers of omega 3 lcpufas, when they don't even make it themselves. That crown goes to all the tiny planktons out there, doing their bit!!

Erm, yeah, Inuits... now, that's another story altogether - as I sure as hell wouldn't recommend Udo's to them.. (although it's noteworthy that whilst they don't die of certain diseases of society, they don't last very long. Sure I've got a list of "issues" they have somewhere)

hackskii

LA deficiency is actually a bit rare, because our intake of LA has doubled during the last 50 years, due to increased intake of polyunsaturated oils, mainly corn and safflower.
If anything, our intake of LA is too high. Although it is essential to health, studies show that excessive consumption of LA promotes tumor growth and cancer.
LNA deficiency affects upwards of 95 percent of the population.
Our intake of LNA has decreased to one-sixth of the prevailing level in 1850.
While excess LA promotes tumor growth LNA inhibits it. LNA also inhibits tissue inflammation and increases metabolic rate and energy level, helping in weight loss.

Ok, I can see your point here but honestly it is skewed. Beings that Udo’s uses flax as its main Omega 3, and flax needs to convert to Omega 3 at the ratio of about 1/10th the conversion so 90% of your equation is lost. Instead of 33 grams of Omega 3 in your Udo’s you are actually getting just 3.3 grams of Omega 3’s and still you are adding 35 grams of Omega 6’s which toss the ratio much higher to around 12 to 1 or 4.3 grams of Omega 3 to 55 grams of Omega 6.
Again supplementing an Omega 6 to the diet that is already rich in Omega 6’s seems reckless to me.
Again for eicosanoid production the ratio is between 1/1 to ¼.

One other thing, much of Udo’s is seed oil, I buy peanuts, almonds, and have a avocado tree.
Why would I buy a processed seed oil when I can get the benefits of protein and carbohydrates along with the oils in the seeds in their natural state?

I don’t think there is much concern for over doing Omega 3’s, Eskimo diets are totally rich in Omega 3’s and they have the lowest incidence of heart disease, stroke, hell even cavities, depression, you name it.
I feel the burden is really on the vegetable oil industry that adds Omega 6’s to everything including potato chips.

I know we got started on this on the other debate but flax, and soy, is known to have a phytoestrogen in them.
Some men this weak estrogen can trigger gyno type conditions.
In others with more aromatization going on flax and soy do tend to act as an anti-estrogen.
As you know bodybuilding and estrogen are some concern for many.
Very lean guys will have low estrogen but still adding in some flax and soy could potentially elevate estrogen in their bodies.
Estrogen is about 200 times as suppressive as testosterone to the HPTA

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Scott


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hackskii

Sorry, I just have to post this up from one of my favorite posters that doesnt post here anymore, here goes:

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Scott


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Tony Barnes

?? You can't say that 90% of the omega 3 is lost because it's not EPA or DHA!!! The whole point about returning the ratios to closer to 1:1 is that the fatty acids compete for enzyme space down the whole elongation pathway. LNA (or ALA - sorry, different acronyms) is therefore plenty suitable to do the job. You are not altering the balance unfavourably by using flax or udos, by definition it pushes it closer to 1:1.

As for the other sources of omega 6 you've mentioned, as i've stated before, the whole point is to try and cut those out. Cooking oils, margarines, shortenings, etc, have all had the living crap kicked out of them by something like 9 different processing techniques. They are no longer healthy, and instead, give your body crap loads of damaged molecules that it now has to sort out. These damaged molecules screw up the conversion of EFAs by getting in the way of enzyme space - as you'll know enzyme inhibition is complicated, but the crux is that when molecules that are almost the right shape get in the way, things go to ****.

So once you've taken out the poor sources of omega 6 (cooking oils, "chips", cakes, biscuits, deep fried food), you are left with little in your diet. People who eat a lot of seeds and nuts will be different, and so long as they are eating raw ones, flax would make a more sensible addition to Udos, as they won't have as much a need for the omega 6..

I'm not sure how you've worked out the ratio bits - your numbers are off. 60ml of Udos will provide about 15g of omega 6, and about 30g of omega 3 (for simplicity I'm using 2:1:1 omega 3:6:9 ratios, otherwise head would be hurting this time in the morning...) - not 3g of omega 3 + 35g of omega 6.

Yes, Udo's is a seed oil, a very carefully made one at that. Expeller pressed in an light and oxygen free environment, below 50C. In these conditions the oils are bottled in nitrogen flushed amber glass that's then put in cardboard boxes and refrigerated. It is a million miles away from the cooking oils that you get on the shelf.

If people want to do as you do and source all their oils their own way, i applaud them - it's a good way to do things, but it is also more complicated. There is also the matters of whether people like the taste, are allergic, etc. It's akin to moaning if people want to use whey protein - IMO gold top milk is a better alternative with it's vitamins, fat, and caesin. Or vegans who use pea/soy/rice protein.

The inuits have actually been eating fish oils alone for so long, their entire physiology has changed. They don't have the enzymes required to process LNA to EPA/DHA, and their entire body is set up to work differently.

I agree that algal oils can be very good - Martec have a bonafide cold extraction process for their Life DHA - which is a good product. It's also fabulously expensive!

Regarding oestrogen effect - I reckon if it did this, then the guys we sponsor would have already said a thing or two. Rob Feesey gets down to crazy low BF, 3-4%, and he's never mentioned any oestrogenic effects.

It's something that needs researching, as it's very interesting, but from what I've seen in practice, it's not an issue. If you say it does trigger gyno in some men, I'd love to see this, as I have not come across it.

Final point - there was mention about the calories contained in flax. We always recommend that Udo's/flax is put in as an addition to daily calories. i.e. ignore it. The net result - the majority of people lose fat (there's always exceptions to any rule...). You can't just consider calories from EFAs as calories and nothing more when they have distinct metabolic effects. How much energy they give off when burned in a calorimeter is irrelevant.

hackskii

I understand your point so I will ask you some questions.

If Udo's has Omega 6 in there and the typical American diet has too much 6's and not enough 3's, can give me a good argument of adding in the extra 6's to my diet if it is already is too high?

So, gram for gram are you suggesting that flax gram for gram supplies the same amount of Usable Omega 3's?

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
The intake of 3 grams per day to 4 grams per day of ALA is equivalent to 0.3 grams per day of EPA with optimal elongation.

If this is correct would it not take more flax to do the same job as fish oils?
And in the States flax is more expensive than fish oils.

Due to the conversion would I be adding in more calories in my diet regardless of metabolism?

Gram for gram would fish oils have the same capabilities for fat loss than flax?
If so why would I add more calories to my diet if I am already struggling to lower my bodyweight?

Flax and phytoestrogens is well known, this we can agree on.
Remember that the guy that is very lean will have less aromatase activity and adding in even a weak estrogen could be problematic.

You cant use this in your arguement
Rob Feesey gets down to crazy low BF, 3-4%, and he's never mentioned any oestrogenic effects.

I know many bodybuilders that take anti-estrogens during contest prep, and are on anabolics and androgenics, I bet rob is using some anti-estrogen so suggesting flax has no interferance with estrogen seems a bit biased.

There are studies that suggest that flax and nolvadex act the same on blocking estrogen sensitive breast tissue.
Nolvadex is a weak estrogen but it also is a agonist and antagonist to estrogen.
It acts like a estrogen to the prostate and that is not cool.

In your opinion could flax act as an agonist and antagonist to estrogen in men?
If so would you really suggest that a very lean guy that has little aromitization take flax over fish oils?

Why flax or Udo's over fish oils?

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Scott


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Tony Barnes

I understand your point so I will ask you some questions.

If Udo's has Omega 6 in there and the typical American diet has too much 6's and not enough 3's, can give me a good argument of adding in the extra 6's to my diet if it is already is too high?

As per above, the idea is to remove the poor sources of omega 6 from the diet, and supplement with good, undamaged omega 6

So, gram for gram are you suggesting that flax gram for gram supplies the same amount of Usable Omega 3's?

Depends on how you define the term useable. >97% of eaten LNA is absorbed into the body, of which roughly half is burned as fuel, the rest goes down other matabolic roles. I dno't know the stats for fish oils, but would assume it's similar

Do you agree or disagree with this statement?
The intake of 3 grams per day to 4 grams per day of ALA is equivalent to 0.3 grams per day of EPA with optimal elongation.

Yes - but the flax will also be doing stuff elsewhere

If this is correct would it not take more flax to do the same job as fish oils?
And in the States flax is more expensive than fish oils.

Yes, it will take more flax to do the same roles as fish oils, however, it will also be covering other roles. The price comparison is true for the UK too.

Due to the conversion would I be adding in more calories in my diet regardless of metabolism?

Yes

Gram for gram would fish oils have the same capabilities for fat loss than flax?

From what I can gather from PPAR activation, they will exert a similar effect, though LNA is a stronger promoter I think, will have to sieve through the studies (they made for a painful read on the train down to London, and the concurrent hotel stay last year...).

If so why would I add more calories to my diet if I am already struggling to lower my bodyweight?

You're not "adding" calories in that respect. I would never recommend 12g of flax to be used as a meaningful amount. A meaningful amount is 15ml/25kg when using Udo's. At this level, taken in addition to normal diet, most people see weight fall off. It doesn't make much sense, but the thank-you emails I get from athletes we sponsor who do just that to get ripped for stage confirms it.

Flax and phytoestrogens is well known, this we can agree on.
Remember that the guy that is very lean will have less aromatase activity and adding in even a weak estrogen could be problematic.

You cant use this in your arguement
Rob Feesey gets down to crazy low BF, 3-4%, and he's never mentioned any oestrogenic effects.

I know many bodybuilders that take anti-estrogens during contest prep, and are on anabolics and androgenics, I bet rob is using some anti-estrogen so suggesting flax has no interferance with estrogen seems a bit biased.

Rob is a natural for life athlete. We only sponsor natural athletes as first and foremost we are a health food company, and as such assisted athletes go against the grain of what we believe in. If we were simply a sports supplement company, things may be different. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to be able to, as we've had requests from some bloody high up guys, and it would make my job a million times easier having them promote it, but we had to make a decision on that early on. It doesn't take away our respect for what they achieve though! However, it does emphasise that proper diet and training can achieve amazing things.

There are studies that suggest that flax and nolvadex act the same on blocking estrogen sensitive breast tissue.
Nolvadex is a weak estrogen but it also is a agonist and antagonist to estrogen.
It acts like a estrogen to the prostate and that is not cool.

Do you have any links for that? Would be an interesting read

In your opinion could flax act as an agonist and antagonist to estrogen in men?

I would suggest that it would work as partial agaonist - i.e. neither strongly promoting, nor blocking the binder. in this sense it would work as a oestrogen normaliser, the same in women. I'd love for someone to be able to prove this one way or the other, as I haven't seen any direct research.

If so would you really suggest that a very lean guy that has little aromitization take flax over fish oils?

N/A

Why flax or Udo's over fish oils?

More overall benefits, undamged source of EFAs with lower oxidative damage potential (decent Vit E intake in diet will counter this at normal fish oil intake - megadosing is uncharted), doesn't leave anything out, caters for undamaged omega 6, and for those that are that way inclined it's vegan.



There are people for whom fish oil is needed, and then there is the majority for whom seed oils are fine. There is always going to be impllications of cost, ease of use, etc - but this is true of many foods, and indeed, most of life. All I can say is that Udo's is probably the most rigorously made nutritional oil out there, and given the amount of copies that have cropped up over the years, is a very popular and effective way to retain/enhance health.

hackskii

http://www.brinkzone.com/articledeta...catid=6&aid=71

It does not show the study but makes refrence to it.
A leading TRT doctor here in the states suggests that men with alot of aromitization should use soy and flax in their diet to control estrogen.
But he recommends that men with low belly fat to avoid flax and soy.

There are many natural aromatase inhibitors that will lower estrogen like. chrysin, dessicated liver, tobacco, Diindolylmethane (DIM), cruciferous vegetables, Indole-3-carbinol (I3C) as examples and all are over the counter and do work.
So again if Rob is natural he has access to these during contest prep.
That would be kind of interesting.

I may add some flax to my diet just for GP

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Scott


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thestudbeast

phytoestrogens are found in many fruit and vegtables it does'nt stop us eating them I think you'll find peanuts are full of them yet many do well on peanut butter. It's very easy to get the wrong end of the stick with the hormone system even if your a doctor. Flax undeniably does interact with more than one hormone in the body but it maybe a while before we see the whole picture. On a side note it's meant to bind to DHT making it unable to attach to the reseptors (so possibly help hairloss). Soy should not be mentioned in the same breath as flax as it's photoestogenic qualities are in fact it's only good ones, only fermented soy should be contimplated for consumption and then in small amounts.

andr0lic

I've supplemented with omega-3's for almost ten years, and through first-hand experience I found this to be the accurate equation:


NKO>Cod Liver Oil>Fish oil>flax oil (for males at least)

Women have more of the enzyme necessary(which you all know I'm sure) to convert the alpha-linolenic acid in flax. As far as mufa's and pufa's, i'm not going to pretend i have advanced knowledge, but what i do have is exceptional intelligence and a rather objective critical nature.

The thing that many people who state scientific findings and fact verbatim forget is that sound anecdotal evidence may belie a more accurate truth than science currently has the comprehension of explaining. So while it is meritorious and often beneficial to state that scientific edict takes precedence over someone's opinion, when you have a few thousand someones of reasonable aptitude, it comes down to the proof on paper, and the proof in da puddin'.

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hackskii

Man, I love the direction of the posts here on the thread, oh man, I am in heaven learning and reasoning.


From personal experiance.
I take 12 fish oils a day and after 3 months I noticed that my urination and flow (p1ss) was much stronger. I was confused at this until I found something on the net that supported my assumptions.
First it is well known that fish oils aid in inflammation.
Second fish oils aid in PG1 and PG3 prostaglandin production.
With that said the most prostaglandins in the body reside in the prostate.
With fish oils anti-inflammation properties it made much sense that this was the reason as I did nothing diffrent.

So from personal experiance i love fish oils

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Scott


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andr0lic

With regard to prostaglandin inhibition, I have noticed that when i supplement in excess of 6 or 7 grams of fish oil a day, I start to lose some of my size and fullness, especially post-workout, when Prostaglandin formation is so important. Over the years using and experimenting with many different doses of fish oil, I've found for me, that too much fish-oil is counter-intuitive to acheiving the desired anabolic state. My eyes don't lie, and the outcome is the same repeatedly whenever i dose too high on my Omega-3's. The correlation could be drawn with 100% pure cherry juice or ibuprofen. yes they will lower inflammation to a degree but if too much is administered, the decrease in prostaglandin activity then becomes deletrious. In contrast, no matter how much flax oil i have ever used, i've never encountered the reduced fullness and muscle-wasting effects as seen with high dose fish oil. let that be a testament to the inefficacy of flax oil as an omega-3 supplement.

I would bet that a lot of you out there who reduced your fish oil intake back to 6 or so grams a day would allow yourselves to reap the maximum benefits of its anti-inflammatory and hormonal optimizing effects.


-Andy Androlic

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Gather ye rosebuds while ye may,
Old time is still a-flying;
And this sweet flower that blooms today,
Tomorrow will soon be dying

Nytol