Fat and 40 !! Major help needed please - Page 3 - UK-Muscle Body Building Community

Karen · 30-01-2006, 05:38 AM

Thanks for your help ...
I weighed up portions of brown rice last night and even though the last week we have cleaned up our diet drastically its amazes just how small 14g of rice is when you see it on the scales and how much you over eat without even realising it !!!
Where you say if weight loss slows down up the fat and drop the carbs, do you swop like for like ...e.g. drop the carbs by say 10g and add that in fat ?

crazycal1 · 30-01-2006, 12:53 PM

thats right!and dont forget your walking the dog cardio-lol

Karen · 30-01-2006, 03:56 PM

I'm at the gym 5 days a week now too

Just some cardio and some free weights with the guy who runs it and trains people, so think I am on the right track with that too .... I better get fit and slim after all this hard work or Ill be demanding a refund lol

how does it go..... "what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger" !! think that just about sums it up

**hackskii** · 30-01-2006, 04:10 PM

Well, if you look at it like this:
1 gram of fat = 9 calories
1 gram of carbohydrates = 4 calories
1 gram of protein = 4 calories.

14 grams of rice is diffrent than 14 grams of carbs.
Id say dont eat a portion bigger than the palm of your hand in the rice at any time.
I dont have any idea on weights of things.
I know a half cup of uncooked oats is 27 grams of carbohydrates.
How much that weighs I have no idea, and to think I have a scale in my kitchen too

1 egg is 7 grams of protein.
I dont remember off the tip of my head the fat amount is.

Karen · 04-02-2006, 08:45 AM

Just a quick update. In two weeks I have lost 6lbs so am a very happy bunny

I know this wont continue and I am happy to lose 1 - 2lbs a week, but it certainly spurs you on to see the weight going down.
Thanks again everyone for your help and Ill keep you updated on my ever decreasing waistline

**hackskii** · 04-02-2006, 08:21 PM

Cool, that is fantastic.
I knew you could do it.
Keep it up and keep us informed.

Felicite · 07-02-2006, 01:58 PM

I work with diabetics. Insulin regulation is not only important for losing weight but also for good health of the body.

Here is a quick easy way to make sure you don't eat too many carbs when you are out. Divide your plate up into 1/4s. Fast carbs only should fill 1/4 of your plate, Slow carbs can fill 1/2 or your plate. Also any milk or juice should not be more than 4oz.

It is important to have carbs for energy in your diet to keep the insulin levels from spiking.

For a list of GI and GL of any particular product you can go to
http://www.glycemicindex.com/

Great information in this thread. I'm going to pass it on to all those I know who want to lose weight.

There is nothing quite like having that slim fit body after being fat for so long.

Best of luck, Karen. We are cheering for you!!!

**hackskii** · 07-02-2006, 03:05 PM

Thanks for the link felicite.

Is this a typo?: "It is important to have carbs for energy in your diet to keep the insulin levels from spiking."

Carbs actually do spike insulin.
Adding a fat and or fiber to carbs reduce spiking.

Felicite · 07-02-2006, 03:31 PM

No, that is really not a typo.
Diabetics are required to eat carbs at every meal.
It is a matter of choices, either fast carbs or slow carbs.
Diabetics are required to have at least 60g of carbs a day to keep the insulin level from spiking.
They are also required to increase their Essential Fatty Acids, Especially Omega 3s.

Fibrous vegies can be unlimited of course. You can eat as many of those as you want.
and you want to stay away from sugar laden foods, white bread, processed foods just as bodybuilders do.

Some of the carbs that are 1/4 plate of the top of my head are
pasta, rice, beans, any milk product, corn, carrots, breads, white potatoes, fruits
It also allows for that occassional indulgence of chocolate cake. but it must be only 1/4 of plate.
Diabetics lose weight doing this simple plate template and rotating their choices of food for variety to maintain their blood sugar levels that are tested 3 times a day.

Again there are so many factors in losing weight properly.
When you eat
What you eat
How your food is cooked
Portion sizes of what you eat
The adage of "take in less than you expend"
stress in your life
The exercise demands

The information can really become overwhelming to any one starting out.
I agree with you about the insulin as the key to losing weight.

The biochemistry is facinating to me.
I read a very good ebook on it as it relates to bodybuilding.
Guide to Body Fat Loss

**hackskii** · 07-02-2006, 06:50 PM

It would not load that page for that book.
Can you send it to me please?
Hackskii@yahoo.com

I am a collector of books.

I myself have alot of doubt on the experts sayings on diets.
Looking at the Food Pyramid man oh man what a joke.
Eating like that will make you fat.

I learned from personal choice.
I like to have the reason behind the answer myself.

Like for instance, the recomendation for Omega 3's is because Omega 3's upregulate insulin receptors so less insulin is used to do the same job.
After all diabetes is not a problem with insulin but for the most part sugar.

Table sugar is not even a food.

Neither are those highly processed carbohydrate foods like potato chips and other snack foods. They are almost as high in the GI as sugar, and so is white bread.

Exercise also upregulates insulin receptors.
The GI is nice but that is not the best approach as some of those foods low in the GI are actually not all that good for you.
food combining or macrobiotics are very usefull and actually better.

The corn and carrots you suggested when cooked are very high in the GI.
All food values (raise GI) get changed when cooking.
Raw would be better with maybe the exception of tomato and the release of lycopene, which is very good for the prostate for men.

Hey can you send me that book?.......please......

Felicite · 08-02-2006, 07:14 AM

Yes, cooking does make a difference in the food's sugar utilization.

Steamed vegetables are better than cooked to a mush state vegetables.
Pasta that is cooked to just the al dente (still firm but chewy) is a lower GI than if it is cooked to a limp state.
Yes, the GI can be misleading if you do not understand it in context to those things you've mentioned.

I like food combination and macronutrients too. But some say it doesn't matter what foods you eat because it all gets digested. The jury is still out for me.

I thought this article was interesting on food combinations...
What are your thoughts on it?
Food Combinations and Digestive Enzymes
I will disagree with the acid fruits and protein, at least for pineapple.
Pineapple is a good source of protein digestive enzymes.

Maybe this post should be moved to a new thread.

Nutrition is fascinating to me.

**hackskii** · 08-02-2006, 03:58 PM

I am aware of food combining. This has been around for many years.

There are many diffrent approaches to dieting.
Many of the diets contradict each other, Zone (my favorite by far), Atkins, food combining, macrobiotics, low fat high carb (I hate this one the most), pritikin diet (another one I hate).
But if you take a piece of somthing that fits for you, add it to something else that fits, use it toss the rest away.
One shoe does not fit all in the world of dieting.

I think food combining has its place, but if you take digestive enzymes then this just kindof kills the theory of food combining.

Probably what is worse, is the fact that many enzymes get destroyed if cooked above 118 degrees.
So, in theory, eating fruits and vegetables raw will benefit digestion the best.
Also for each type of food, there is a enzme that breaks this perticular foood down. For instance.

carbohydrates - Amylase
Protein - Protease
Fats - Lipase

So the enzyme bromelain in pinapple might aid in the digestion of lets say protein but not aid in the digestion of lets say fats.

Don't get me wrong bromelain is excellant for inflimation, circulation, blood thinner.
But pinapple is high in the GI and should be used in moderation when dieting. I love pineapple and cayenne (sounds crazy but I got that from the Mexicans).
There is an article on bromelain here on the board.

A very good product that I take are digestive enzymes by Twin Labs. Good stuff. Taking these with meals will alleviate bloat, allow you to get the most bang for your buck from your food.
Also good for keeping your enzyme pool from being used for digestion instead of the many functions the body needs these enzymes for.

Think of it like this.
You have a enzyme pool that is used on the cellular level for many process in the body.
Foods that are cooked, or that pre-packaged highly processed bagged food crap most people eat is void of enzymes, (not to mention higher in the GI than sugar).
So instead of taking in enzymes from food and using that to aid in digestion, your body now has to grab enzymes from the metabolic pool and give them to the digestive pool (simple phrase I guess, I cant really explain it otherwise).
What heppens with this? The body is left kindof short in the metabolic pool as it is doing the job of digestion instead of its other job of keeping you alive.
I always have suggested digestive enzymes.
If anybody knows me I ALWAYS suggest this.
Dieting, especially bulking to get the biggest bang from your food.

I was sold in this a while ago when I saw a guy put some digestive enzymes on a bowl of oatmeal. In 20 minutes this oatmeal looked like pudding. Man, it broke it down to almost nothing.
If it can do this to a highly fiberous food, how much benefit can it do to aid in digestion to your body?

I have read some stuff on this but there actually is no medical evidence for this. So how do I rate this?
From personal experiance.
Less bloat, feel better, weight loss, etc.

I appreciate your comments and like to see someone else looking into what food does to the body.
I love that book you sent me, I will post some of the stuff, although like most books I dont agree with all as I see holes in it.

I would love to hear more about your thoughts on foods. I myself too have a passion for this.

Felicite · 08-02-2006, 09:36 PM

All good information as always, Hackskii.
I was sold on enzymes when some pineapple juice spilt on my ham and melted it into a blob. It made me think of that sci fi movie... "The Blob".

I am like you... no one diet... a combination of things...
but honestly if you learn to listen to the body and understand how it works eating the right thing at the right time becomes easier.

It is just filtering through all the information out there and knowing what works for you in your particular situation.

Well, remember about the GI.. even though fruits may be high in GI they have their place in the diet and shouldn't be avoided.

I look forward to talking with you about foods and nutrition.

but right now....

Karen how is it going?? What's the latest update. Do you have a journal here?

Karen · 09-02-2006, 07:51 AM

Hi
Everything is going great ty. I am really enjoying healthy eating plus the gym. We go to the gym 5 days a week now, obviously because we are so unfit we dont do that much there but the trainer is really nice and we do what is needed and are working up to do more each week.
Diet wise I am finding it easy as long as I prepare in advance so that when I am hungry food is there ready and not buying in any rubbish helps a ton too.
I will get there

Ive not got a journal, maybe I should put one up

Peg · 09-02-2006, 04:07 PM

Hi Karen. I'm just shy of 50 and started training with MA at 45 for my cardio.
I started out walking before the MA. Walking was the best thing for me because I needed to lose about 100 pounds. I lost 65 pounds just walking and eating clean! I got down to 160 and was about to start weights and then it went tits up for me last year with injuries and a hurricane so I gained 30 pounds but now things are settling down and I'm getting back in my MA and my weights. I'm new with weight training, but I'm great with diet and nutrition and things of biology.

I'm going to post a journal up myself by next week.
It will hold me accountable to train and keep me focused and help me see where I am strong and where I am weak in my goals.

I have a MA exam in July. I want to be in top shape for it. I am looking forward to the training between now and then..

In your enthusiasm.. don't overtrain!! I am sure your trainer is keeping you from doing that but just in case. The older you get the more time your muscles need to restore so I've been told...

Baaaaaaaaa, I just listen to my body... that is the best advice I can give you... Learn to listen to your body because each person is different in their day to day needs.
When I listen to it, I get my best results.

It is good you have training buddies. I noticed the "we" in your reply. They will help keep you motivated!

30-01-2006, 12:53 PM	#32 (permalink)
crazycal1 Old Git Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Nowhere Posts: 245	thats right!and dont forget your walking the dog cardio-lol __________________ D.T.A. Cal 3:16 To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Einsteins mind was the key to all things...to understand more than to know. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

30-01-2006, 04:10 PM	#34 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,022	Well, if you look at it like this: 1 gram of fat = 9 calories 1 gram of carbohydrates = 4 calories 1 gram of protein = 4 calories. 14 grams of rice is diffrent than 14 grams of carbs. Id say dont eat a portion bigger than the palm of your hand in the rice at any time. I dont have any idea on weights of things. I know a half cup of uncooked oats is 27 grams of carbohydrates. How much that weighs I have no idea, and to think I have a scale in my kitchen too 1 egg is 7 grams of protein. I dont remember off the tip of my head the fat amount is. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

04-02-2006, 08:21 PM	#36 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,022	Cool, that is fantastic. I knew you could do it. Keep it up and keep us informed. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-02-2006, 03:05 PM	#38 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,022	Thanks for the link felicite. Is this a typo?: "It is important to have carbs for energy in your diet to keep the insulin levels from spiking." Carbs actually do spike insulin. Adding a fat and or fiber to carbs reduce spiking. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

07-02-2006, 03:31 PM	#39 (permalink)
Felicite Newbie Trainer Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 30	No, that is really not a typo. Diabetics are required to eat carbs at every meal. It is a matter of choices, either fast carbs or slow carbs. Diabetics are required to have at least 60g of carbs a day to keep the insulin level from spiking. They are also required to increase their Essential Fatty Acids, Especially Omega 3s. Fibrous vegies can be unlimited of course. You can eat as many of those as you want. and you want to stay away from sugar laden foods, white bread, processed foods just as bodybuilders do. Some of the carbs that are 1/4 plate of the top of my head are pasta, rice, beans, any milk product, corn, carrots, breads, white potatoes, fruits It also allows for that occassional indulgence of chocolate cake. but it must be only 1/4 of plate. Diabetics lose weight doing this simple plate template and rotating their choices of food for variety to maintain their blood sugar levels that are tested 3 times a day. Again there are so many factors in losing weight properly. When you eat What you eat How your food is cooked Portion sizes of what you eat The adage of "take in less than you expend" stress in your life The exercise demands The information can really become overwhelming to any one starting out. I agree with you about the insulin as the key to losing weight. The biochemistry is facinating to me. I read a very good ebook on it as it relates to bodybuilding. Guide to Body Fat Loss __________________ Success is just disciplined action towards a committed goal. Last edited by Felicite; 07-02-2006 at 04:49 PM.

30-01-2006, 05:38 AM	#31 (permalink)
Karen Gym Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Southsea, Hants Posts: 182	Thanks for your help ... I weighed up portions of brown rice last night and even though the last week we have cleaned up our diet drastically its amazes just how small 14g of rice is when you see it on the scales and how much you over eat without even realising it !!! Where you say if weight loss slows down up the fat and drop the carbs, do you swop like for like ...e.g. drop the carbs by say 10g and add that in fat ?

30-01-2006, 03:56 PM	#33 (permalink)
Karen Gym Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Southsea, Hants Posts: 182	I'm at the gym 5 days a week now too Just some cardio and some free weights with the guy who runs it and trains people, so think I am on the right track with that too .... I better get fit and slim after all this hard work or Ill be demanding a refund lol how does it go..... "what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger" !! think that just about sums it up

04-02-2006, 08:45 AM	#35 (permalink)
Karen Gym Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Southsea, Hants Posts: 182	Just a quick update. In two weeks I have lost 6lbs so am a very happy bunny I know this wont continue and I am happy to lose 1 - 2lbs a week, but it certainly spurs you on to see the weight going down. Thanks again everyone for your help and Ill keep you updated on my ever decreasing waistline

07-02-2006, 01:58 PM	#37 (permalink)
Felicite Newbie Trainer Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 30	I work with diabetics. Insulin regulation is not only important for losing weight but also for good health of the body. Here is a quick easy way to make sure you don't eat too many carbs when you are out. Divide your plate up into 1/4s. Fast carbs only should fill 1/4 of your plate, Slow carbs can fill 1/2 or your plate. Also any milk or juice should not be more than 4oz. It is important to have carbs for energy in your diet to keep the insulin levels from spiking. For a list of GI and GL of any particular product you can go to http://www.glycemicindex.com/ Great information in this thread. I'm going to pass it on to all those I know who want to lose weight. There is nothing quite like having that slim fit body after being fat for so long. Best of luck, Karen. We are cheering for you!!!

07-02-2006, 06:50 PM	#40 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,022	It would not load that page for that book. Can you send it to me please? Hackskii@yahoo.com I am a collector of books. I myself have alot of doubt on the experts sayings on diets. Looking at the Food Pyramid man oh man what a joke. Eating like that will make you fat. I learned from personal choice. I like to have the reason behind the answer myself. Like for instance, the recomendation for Omega 3's is because Omega 3's upregulate insulin receptors so less insulin is used to do the same job. After all diabetes is not a problem with insulin but for the most part sugar. Table sugar is not even a food. Neither are those highly processed carbohydrate foods like potato chips and other snack foods. They are almost as high in the GI as sugar, and so is white bread. Exercise also upregulates insulin receptors. The GI is nice but that is not the best approach as some of those foods low in the GI are actually not all that good for you. food combining or macrobiotics are very usefull and actually better. The corn and carrots you suggested when cooked are very high in the GI. All food values (raise GI) get changed when cooking. Raw would be better with maybe the exception of tomato and the release of lycopene, which is very good for the prostate for men. Hey can you send me that book?.......please...... __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

08-02-2006, 07:14 AM	#41 (permalink)
Felicite Newbie Trainer Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 30	Yes, cooking does make a difference in the food's sugar utilization. Steamed vegetables are better than cooked to a mush state vegetables. Pasta that is cooked to just the al dente (still firm but chewy) is a lower GI than if it is cooked to a limp state. Yes, the GI can be misleading if you do not understand it in context to those things you've mentioned. I like food combination and macronutrients too. But some say it doesn't matter what foods you eat because it all gets digested. The jury is still out for me. I thought this article was interesting on food combinations... What are your thoughts on it? Food Combinations and Digestive Enzymes I will disagree with the acid fruits and protein, at least for pineapple. Pineapple is a good source of protein digestive enzymes. Maybe this post should be moved to a new thread. Nutrition is fascinating to me. __________________ Success is just disciplined action towards a committed goal. Last edited by Felicite; 08-02-2006 at 07:23 AM.

08-02-2006, 03:58 PM	#42 (permalink)
hackskii UK-Muscle Moderator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Sunny Southern California U.S.A. Posts: 23,022	I am aware of food combining. This has been around for many years. There are many diffrent approaches to dieting. Many of the diets contradict each other, Zone (my favorite by far), Atkins, food combining, macrobiotics, low fat high carb (I hate this one the most), pritikin diet (another one I hate). But if you take a piece of somthing that fits for you, add it to something else that fits, use it toss the rest away. One shoe does not fit all in the world of dieting. I think food combining has its place, but if you take digestive enzymes then this just kindof kills the theory of food combining. Probably what is worse, is the fact that many enzymes get destroyed if cooked above 118 degrees. So, in theory, eating fruits and vegetables raw will benefit digestion the best. Also for each type of food, there is a enzme that breaks this perticular foood down. For instance. carbohydrates - Amylase Protein - Protease Fats - Lipase So the enzyme bromelain in pinapple might aid in the digestion of lets say protein but not aid in the digestion of lets say fats. Don't get me wrong bromelain is excellant for inflimation, circulation, blood thinner. But pinapple is high in the GI and should be used in moderation when dieting. I love pineapple and cayenne (sounds crazy but I got that from the Mexicans). There is an article on bromelain here on the board. A very good product that I take are digestive enzymes by Twin Labs. Good stuff. Taking these with meals will alleviate bloat, allow you to get the most bang for your buck from your food. Also good for keeping your enzyme pool from being used for digestion instead of the many functions the body needs these enzymes for. Think of it like this. You have a enzyme pool that is used on the cellular level for many process in the body. Foods that are cooked, or that pre-packaged highly processed bagged food crap most people eat is void of enzymes, (not to mention higher in the GI than sugar). So instead of taking in enzymes from food and using that to aid in digestion, your body now has to grab enzymes from the metabolic pool and give them to the digestive pool (simple phrase I guess, I cant really explain it otherwise). What heppens with this? The body is left kindof short in the metabolic pool as it is doing the job of digestion instead of its other job of keeping you alive. I always have suggested digestive enzymes. If anybody knows me I ALWAYS suggest this. Dieting, especially bulking to get the biggest bang from your food. I was sold in this a while ago when I saw a guy put some digestive enzymes on a bowl of oatmeal. In 20 minutes this oatmeal looked like pudding. Man, it broke it down to almost nothing. If it can do this to a highly fiberous food, how much benefit can it do to aid in digestion to your body? I have read some stuff on this but there actually is no medical evidence for this. So how do I rate this? From personal experiance. Less bloat, feel better, weight loss, etc. I appreciate your comments and like to see someone else looking into what food does to the body. I love that book you sent me, I will post some of the stuff, although like most books I dont agree with all as I see holes in it. I would love to hear more about your thoughts on foods. I myself too have a passion for this. __________________ "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin Scott To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. Last edited by hackskii; 08-02-2006 at 04:03 PM.

08-02-2006, 09:36 PM	#43 (permalink)
Felicite Newbie Trainer Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 30	Karen, How goes your life changes? All good information as always, Hackskii. I was sold on enzymes when some pineapple juice spilt on my ham and melted it into a blob. It made me think of that sci fi movie... "The Blob". I am like you... no one diet... a combination of things... but honestly if you learn to listen to the body and understand how it works eating the right thing at the right time becomes easier. It is just filtering through all the information out there and knowing what works for you in your particular situation. Well, remember about the GI.. even though fruits may be high in GI they have their place in the diet and shouldn't be avoided. I look forward to talking with you about foods and nutrition. but right now.... Karen how is it going?? What's the latest update. Do you have a journal here? __________________ Success is just disciplined action towards a committed goal.

09-02-2006, 07:51 AM	#44 (permalink)
Karen Gym Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Southsea, Hants Posts: 182	Hi Everything is going great ty. I am really enjoying healthy eating plus the gym. We go to the gym 5 days a week now, obviously because we are so unfit we dont do that much there but the trainer is really nice and we do what is needed and are working up to do more each week. Diet wise I am finding it easy as long as I prepare in advance so that when I am hungry food is there ready and not buying in any rubbish helps a ton too. I will get there Ive not got a journal, maybe I should put one up

09-02-2006, 04:07 PM	#45 (permalink)
Peg Getting HUGE! Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,468	Hi Karen. I'm just shy of 50 and started training with MA at 45 for my cardio. I started out walking before the MA. Walking was the best thing for me because I needed to lose about 100 pounds. I lost 65 pounds just walking and eating clean! I got down to 160 and was about to start weights and then it went tits up for me last year with injuries and a hurricane so I gained 30 pounds but now things are settling down and I'm getting back in my MA and my weights. I'm new with weight training, but I'm great with diet and nutrition and things of biology. I'm going to post a journal up myself by next week. It will hold me accountable to train and keep me focused and help me see where I am strong and where I am weak in my goals. I have a MA exam in July. I want to be in top shape for it. I am looking forward to the training between now and then.. In your enthusiasm.. don't overtrain!! I am sure your trainer is keeping you from doing that but just in case. The older you get the more time your muscles need to restore so I've been told... Baaaaaaaaa, I just listen to my body... that is the best advice I can give you... Learn to listen to your body because each person is different in their day to day needs. When I listen to it, I get my best results. It is good you have training buddies. I noticed the "we" in your reply. They will help keep you motivated! __________________ "21st century man is not conquered by guns, nor by oppression, but by seduction." "Pride to the human heart is like lard to the pig." Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn "The best punch is the one that is both first, last, and ends the fight." Last edited by Peg; 09-02-2006 at 04:10 PM.