winger

The cardinal fundamental of bodybuilding science is the principle of intensity, i.e., only by training to a point of momentary muscular failure, where 100 percent intensity of effort is required to complete the last rep, can one be assured that growth is stimulated. And because the magnitude of the demand made by such training on the bodyís limited reserve of biochemical resources, or recovery ability, is literally enormous, that training must be cautiously regulated in terms of both volume and frequency - lest it result in overtraining.

Overtraining, dear reader, is not something merely "kinda" or "sorta" negative - it is much worse than that. Overtraining is the worst training mistake a bodybuilder can make; it is precisely that which militates against the desired result. Overtraining, by definition, means performing any more exercise than is minimally required to trigger the growth mechanism into motion. Most bodybuilders today still operate on the notion that their purpose is to discover how many sets they can do, how much they can take or how long they can endure. And such is erroneous because bodybuilding is not aerobic. A bodybuilding workout is not an endurance contest! The actual, literal purpose of a bodybuilder is not to discover how many sets he can endure, but to intelligently do what nature requires merely to trigger the growth mechanism into motion, then get the hell out of the gym, go home, rest and GROW!

Mike Mentzer

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Godzilla

I watched the HIT video I ordered off of Ebay. It's interesting but everything he does is in super slow motion. I've heard from people that the reason your still stiff after 5 days is because of the negative movement. They say going that slow on the Negative, effects your tendons more then your muscles, which is why it takes so long to heal. What do you think?

hackskii

All lifting puts a strain on the ligiments and muscles.
When the muscles grow the ligiments grow to accomidate the stronger muscles then these ligiments put a strain where the attach to the bone and the bone marrow increases (or gets denser) to accomidate the added stress on the bone.

They did a test with a pitcher and measured his pitching arm and his non pitching arm and the pitching arm had twice the bone density as the non pitching arm.

5 days sore is overtraining.
You should not be sore for 5 days.

That slow training is really good for muscluar development and also it is good for not getting injured. The jerkey movments will give you the injuries.

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Scott


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Godzilla

I go slow enough (I control the weight, I don't let the weight control me(That's my saying 100% original)). About being sore for 5 days, It was the huge BBer Mike was training in his Video who was sore for 5, no it was 7 days.. So ya, he shouldn't be sore for that long, so common sense tells me, he either strained his Tendons and/or overtrained. This is why Mike advocates doing 1 body part per week. I liked his control, which is what I do, except a bit faster. I do think his method would work because your body is always under stress for long periods of time. I personally will stick with the way I do it "slow and strict", but not that slow.

James.Titor

DOMS and stiffness are NOT indicators of productivity. in my opinion HIT is brought down by many things, the most prominat of which is the lack of training frequency, volume and load. how you expect to progress without all three of those being maximised is beyond me.

hackskii

So James are you saying that hitting each bodypart once a week is not enough?
Volume and load come from intensity.
Without intensity you need more volume.
Without load there is no intensity.

I am a big fan of HIT.
Get in and get out while your natural serum test levels are high.
3 hrs in the gym is a waste.

Overtraining is not good and surely gains will suffer.

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Scott


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James.Titor

when did i say i spent 3 hrs in the gym? my average workout (including rest between sets and a 10min stretch at the end) is 1hr-1hr15min.

in your post you seem to be under the impression that intensity=level of pain/effort/burn/whatever.... intensity IS load. you cannot quantify effort accuractley as there are too many variables.

the most productive way to train is to stimulate the CNS maximally. that means high load (80%+ 1RM). you either couple high load with high volume and lower frequency (like powerlifters), or high load with high frequency and low volume (like olympic lifters).

overtrainig is bad. failure on the other hand does not provide adequate CNS stimulation to facilitate growth (hypertrophy) or neuromuscular changes+adaptations.

i am in a rush but will expand on this later/tomorrow.

sorry for the rushed post. look forward to debatign this.

James.Titor

trainign HIT requires 1-3 sets to failure so i am told:

failure, typically being somewhere in the 7-10reps range. to achive 10reps with a weight you would be using a weight that is in the region of 70% your 1RM (about the weight you would get 10resp with, 10RM). so the load you use is waaay below optimal for hypertrophy.

also, when you train to failure, the frequency you are able to use is drastically low. again, goiong by wehat i have read, typically, 7-10days recovery is common.

so lets use "brian and pete" as an example.

brian and pete both have a 100kg 1RM squat (poor brian+pete eh )

using my prefered method, he would train mon+thursday, sub maximally (i.e. not to failure).

brians session under my coaching (squats only -lets not forget we would also do assistance work -but we'll ignore that for now) would go thus:

10x3 (yes, that 10 sets of 3 reps - no sets taken to failure) @ 90%1RM

=30reps, and (10x3x90) = 2700kg total volume and all at 90%1RM

and twice per week.

giving a weekly total of 5400kg lifted over 60reps (high volume) split over 2 sessions (high frequency). each rep was using 90%1RM (v.high load).

pete on the other hand would follow HIT and be under the coaching of mike mentzer et. al and his session might go:

1 set to failure using 70%1RM, say, 10reps (very generous imo)
another set to failure, using the same weight, and this time you got, 7reps (again, generous), and in the 3rd set he got 4-5reps.

his session would look like this:

weekly total:

(70x10)+(70x7)+(70x5) = 1540kg lifted, over 22reps (very low volume), over 1 session (very low frequency), and each rep was done using 70%1RM (v.low load).

who do you think is going to be stronger, and therefore bigger after 6 motnhs????

(answer=brian)

hackskii

Now I see what you are saying but for some degree I disagree.
70% of your max will work 90% of the slow and fast twitch muscles.

What I ment by intensity was the effert put into the lift that goes to failure. 70% max using high intensity will hit most all of the fibers and the resistance will cause hypertrophy.
After all the body is only doing what you are telling it to do.

When I pick a weight I get a mental number in my mind and shoot for that. If I get more than that number in my head fine, (even if it is 15 reps) good, if I get less at least I know what I was shooting for and still go to failure.

I dont really care about the pumps myself and the more reps will give you more pump.
I myself dont like doing the real low reps as this can cause or promote injury.

I think the body is pretty smart and changing up exercises and reps allow the muscles to grow. Plateau's are inevidable. The body only can get so strong on its own.

I work Chest twice a week Mondays=bench and fridays Inclines. 10 sets of chest a week. Nice thing about that is I also work back on those days. One day bent over rows the other pullups.
Each body part has a nice fresh muscle to hit it hard without being pre-fetigued.
Funny thing about this is all my lifts are starting to go up.
I got a better workout (in my mind) working all exercises for chest together but less strength.


I am interested in reading more about what you are talking about.
I spend 20 minutes per bodypart (except legs).

Sorry, I didnt mean to imply you spent 3 hrs in the gym but made the comment to support the high serum test levels. If I am not mistaken I think it is like 40 minutes is the spike, after that your levels drop.

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Scott


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winger

I read this double blind study that they did on some new lifters and they found that between 8-12 reps the lifters put on more muscles.
Say I can do 13 reps with 225=2925
next set I get 11 reps with 225=2475
next set I get 10 reps with 225=2250
and one more set of 9 reps 225=2025
Totals pounds lifted is 9675
Now lets say I do 10 sets of 3 with 275
The total pounds adds up to 8250
Doing your 10 sets dosn't add to as many pounds as the fewer sets.

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Z3R0-CooL

dont get me wrong. i am not trying to disrespect anyone here or Mike Mentzer but personally i think the best way is J.F.T.

Just Fvcking Train..... dont go into toooo much detail on weight training.. its not exactly a science... just train hard without overtraining, do heavy old school compound exercises and put science in nutrition and supplementation.. thats where the science should be researched...

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Remember:

"Drugs should be utilized to maximize the results of a proper lifestyle, both training and DIET. They are not there to correct your errors."

"Knowledge is Power. Keep Educating yourself!!"

James.Titor

but its all good, thought provoking debate.

hackski,

agreed. but think how much stimulation you would get from 90%1RM.

remember, its not just muscle we are training here. the neuromuscular adaptations are also improtant, if not more so. and that comes from hammering the CNS with high loads. the more your body gets used to high loads, the less inhibition (neural) you will have; over time, as your body gets used to the load, it alters its own definition of heavy. there are many contributors to this. the golgi tendon organs for example (proprioception related feedback from muscle to CNS)

not trying to insult anyones intelligence, but for the benifit of others/newbies:
CNS=centeral nervous system (brain and spinal cord)
PNS=perhiphial* nervous system *i can never bloody spell that.
proprioception feedback=infomation sent to brain on joint angles and tension of musclulature

hypertrophy is correlated to load more closely than anything else.

an interesting statement.

i too am of the opinion that a pump is like doms, indicative of very little. but that last part intriuges me.

low reps do not cause or promote injury. people do that. if you are lifting within your limits and maintianing impeccable form, there is no reason why you should get injured. i haven't been injured (with relation to weight traiing) my entire lifting career. on the flip side: i am a firm beleiver that high reps are more likey to cause injury, and training to failure certainly does* (*in a lot of cases); when using high reps your form inevitabley detiriorates sets after set. if anyone beleives for one minute there form on the last few reps in a set of 12 are anything like what it ws on the first 1-5 reps they are kidding themselves.

but again, it differs from person to person.

very true. but consider this: does changing the rep range and weight alow for accurate monitering of progression, and does it progressively overload the muscles? my guess is no.

there are much better ways (again, this is all just my opinion) of plateau breaking thatn changing the rep range. exercise selection for a start. and woerking on weak points for another.

if you were stuck in a rut with your squatting

you could choose one of the following:

[a] totally random rep ranges dictated by how you are able to perfrom on the day, making your progress hard to track, and making it just as hard for your body to adapt to the stimulus.
[b] stop squatting and use goodmornings, or a squat variant, keeping the rep range and load (%age) constant
[c] i dentify your weak area in the squat (getting out of the hole, lockout etc) and wpork on it
?????

no worries. my tone comes accorss a bit "stiff upper lip/arrogant" sometimes. it is TOTALLY non intentional. just my poor vocab

winger,

again, no offence by this, i just don't know how else to word this:

studies, by and large, mean jack. we coul both go to www.google.com and pull out thousands of studies to support/counter each others arguement.

.

yes, but you haven't accounted for the fat that i can train twice in the same amount of time a "HITer" can train and recover. if you don't go to failure, you can lift again (like i and 0000's of others do, every 2-5days, not every 7-10)


so i would have lifted 8250x2=16500lbs, by the time you have only lifted 9675!!!!!

z3ro-cool,

is a really good method, esp for beginner/intermidiate lifters. picking a set/rep range (3x3/5x5/6x3/9x2/whatever) and sticking with it concentrating on lbage progression (adding a couple of lbs each week) is one of the best things you can do.

hackskii

Well, lets just face it some guys grow fast no matter what they do and some guys grow slow.
For that, I feel consistancy is key here. Just keep doing it and use what works for you.

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"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin


Scott


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James.Titor

dead right. concistancy is the key. too many people forget this.

i am not trying to suggest HIT doesn't work. i try to think of things as effiecncy.

if the golden method (the holy grail of lifting) gives 100% gains for effort put in, it is my opinion that HIT is about 80%, linear progrsession is about 85-90% and periodisation is about 90-95%. i am just alwasy looking to improve myself.

anyways i enjoyed this disscussion. hope you did too.

hackskii

James doesnt the CNS take about 5 days to recoup?

I have another question. Would 90% (3 rep range but not to failure) be enough resistance on the muscle?
Strength still goes up without failure?
If so is this because of volume?
Can you tell me more about the PNS?

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"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away." - George Carlin


Scott


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