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Truewarrior1 · 11-11-2007, 11:37 PM

well not research but repectable peoples statements mixed in with research..

i was wrong about the GI but ..The high GI carb WILL jack up insulin levels more which WILL lower cortisol levels MORE which will result in more muscle and less fat than a lower insulin response (post workout) from a lower GI carb. - greatgro

"It's all I use anymore mach. I can't take the bloat with having to take in 3 shakes. I do 40g during my workout, 40 more with my BCAA, glutamine and CEE and then another 40 with my whey 20 mins after that. Before I even started playing on the darkside, I added about 5 lbs of muscle in 10 weeks. I LOVE the fullness of my muscles as well. I will warn you, the bulk stuff tastes like wallpaper paste, sweet wallpaper paste," - GREENFEATHER

"It also replenishes glycogen stores much faster than maltodextrin and dextrose. It also prevents bloating caused by maltodextrin and dextrose."
-cdc1917

"So what’s so special with Waxy Maize in comparison to dextrose or maltodextrin? Many people have used a mix of dextrose and maltodextrin for post workout nutrition for years because it works and is vital for proper glycogen replenishment. Welcome to the new era of post workout nutrition… Waxy Maize Starch. WMS has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean… Mainly, WMS bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double."
-article unknown.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

Muscle glycogen resynthesis rate in humans after supplementation of drinks containing carbohydrates with low and high molecular masses.

Piehl Aulin K, Soderlund K, Hultman E.

Department of Medical Sciences, University of Uppsala/LIVI, S-791 88 Falun, Sweden.

The rate of muscle glycogen synthesis during 2 and 4 h of recovery after depletion by exercise was studied using two energy equivalent carbohydrate drinks, one containing a polyglucoside with a mean molecular mass of 500 000-700 000 (C drink), and one containing monomers and oligomers of glucose with a mean molecular mass of approximately 500 (G drink). The osmolality was 84 and 350 mosmol. l(-1), respectively. A group of 13 healthy well-trained men ingested the drinks after glycogen depleting exercise, one drink at each test occasion. The total amount of carbohydrates consumed was 300 g (4.2 g. kg(-1)) body mass given as 75 g in 500 ml water immediately after exercise and again 30, 60 ad 90-min post exercise. Blood glucose and insulin concentrations were recorded at rest and every 30 min throughout the 4-h recovery period. Muscle biopsies were obtained at the end of exercise and after 2 and 4 h of recovery. Mean muscle glycogen contents after exercise were 52.9 (superdrol 27.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the C group and 58.3 (SD 35.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the G group. Mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher during the initial 2 h for the C drink compared to the G drink: 50.2 (superdrol 13.7) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C group and 29.9 (SD 12.5) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the G group. During the last 2 h the mean synthesis rate was 18.8 (SD 33.3) and 23.3 (SD 22.4) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C and G group, respectively (n.s.). Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks. Our data indicted that the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise.

I LOVE waxy maize. I used to use Dextrose and it always bloated me, made me fat, and 30-60 min later gave me a stomach ache. I switched to malto with better results. I then got cheap and did rice cakes or white rice or ww bread w/ honey. All bloat me and make me sick afterward.

WMS goes down easy and it helped maintain my pumps. I would literally workout, get my pump, lose the pump, drink my wms and 30-60 min later get another pump. It actually increased my conditioning w/in an hour after drinking it.

I used it for my carb up too my last competition and loved it. Right now I'm not using (price - white rice is just cheaper), but I'm thinking of using it 20-40 grams IMMEDIATE postworkout w/ bcaa's, glut, and cee then using my white rice w/ my whey 30-min later.

-hossjob

i've just started using this and i get a real pumped feeling (in addition to my other supps i am taking - synergistically) than i had prior to using it. no bloat, not gas, and very good energy/mood! - unknown

my point was that wms does a lot more than the typical carb. it keeps your muscles fuller way longer than the others. it lets me recovery way better than any other supp. the pump is long lasting and phenominal. 70 g pre or during with 70g post . add 15g citrulline malate pre and you will have the best workouts, pumps and recovery. all of this science you guys are talking about is based on preexisting carb data. wms obviously has different properties than the rest. science wil bear this out at some point. real world results is what im after. you should try wms for awhile instead of conjecturing on something you never used. and being nasty about it to boot. just trying to help.
-51502112

if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? why are my muscles fuller for longer and have a tremendous pump with wms as compared with malto/dextrose/oats? why do i not have doms at all compared to when using the beforementioned carb sources.the most important question is why are the pumps and muscle fullness occuring whether i am carb depleted or not? i constantly eat low gi carbs t/o the day, and the wms properties still occur whenever i use it. not as profound as post workout, but still there. regular carbs cant do that. why are my glucose readings minimally effected with wms usage as compared to other carbs? all im saying is we need more research on it. we need to ask different questions. i used to work for abbott doing clinical trials. its easy to mess up a study [ way too many to mention here] if its not set up correctly. you also find groundbreaking properties quite by accident, and you cant even attribute them to a known process. even psychotropic meds are not fully understood as far as how they work. their methods of action are only explained so far. just something to think about.

-51502112

Yeah, I second the messy and clumpy as all hell notion. I will say that I feel fuller/harder after and for a good while after my workout.

I typically hit weights:

drink 50-60 grams Waxy Maise Starch
20 grams BCAAS

then do cardio for 30 minutes

then take down about 50 grams WPI

then 45min - hr later, take down a solid meal containing some slow releasing carbs..thing is for me that I have not been able to get to gym till 7-8 pm,so personally not likeing all the carbs that late, but physique still looking good, so.... -Max32

've been using WMS for the last 3 weeks and I love this stuff!!! My muscles stay fuller longer and I don't stay sore for 2-3 days after a workout. 50-80G PWO followed 20 mins later by 40-60g whey.

Here's the way you mix it, warm the water up and use one of the little handheld blenders, I have a Braun and it works like a charm. Otherwise, you end up with some nasty a$$ed tasting wallpaper paste with chunks of wax in it.

As for that study, yes, like all of them it was funded by the makers of the product. 300g, WTF? Sounds like a Cell Tech study to me, lol!!

Oh yea, one final thought. DON'T PUT IT IN YOUR CAMELBAC, LOL!! I did this during my 2 long races this year and it ruined the bladder in it. I personally feel that this stuff is the reason I won the second 50 mile race. With regular carb sources I was getting bloated and felt like bloody sh!t, not the case with WMS.
ROB

I love that ****! I take it both pre and post workout and have been having great results with it. I feel fuller and stronger while using it. Definitely much better that malto. -nickw

If I'm not storing carbs as fat, I would consider that a benefit in and of itself. Not that I'm any sort of expert, but the theory behind WMS makes sense to me.-nightfly71

I like it for the fact that it results in absolutely ZERO bloat for me. Ive used up to 3 scoops of it PWO and not had any bloating issues at all. It definitely makes me feel fuller as well. For the record, Im starting my own little experiment of sorts next week...not sure how long it is going to run for. - jason pegg

11-11-2007, 11:37 PM	#1 (permalink)
Truewarrior1 Hulking Out! Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: london Posts: 1,784	my research on WMS well not research but repectable peoples statements mixed in with research.. i was wrong about the GI but ..The high GI carb WILL jack up insulin levels more which WILL lower cortisol levels MORE which will result in more muscle and less fat than a lower insulin response (post workout) from a lower GI carb. - greatgro "It's all I use anymore mach. I can't take the bloat with having to take in 3 shakes. I do 40g during my workout, 40 more with my BCAA, glutamine and CEE and then another 40 with my whey 20 mins after that. Before I even started playing on the darkside, I added about 5 lbs of muscle in 10 weeks. I LOVE the fullness of my muscles as well. I will warn you, the bulk stuff tastes like wallpaper paste, sweet wallpaper paste," - GREENFEATHER "It also replenishes glycogen stores much faster than maltodextrin and dextrose. It also prevents bloating caused by maltodextrin and dextrose." -cdc1917 "So what’s so special with Waxy Maize in comparison to dextrose or maltodextrin? Many people have used a mix of dextrose and maltodextrin for post workout nutrition for years because it works and is vital for proper glycogen replenishment. Welcome to the new era of post workout nutrition… Waxy Maize Starch. WMS has a much higher molecular weight and a much lower osmolarity rate compared to dextrose or maltodextrin, so what does this mean… Mainly, WMS bypasses the stomach, is absorbed by the intestines and immediately is assimilated; this is all done at a much faster rate than dextrose or maltodextrin, almost double." -article unknown. Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK. The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise. Muscle glycogen resynthesis rate in humans after supplementation of drinks containing carbohydrates with low and high molecular masses. Piehl Aulin K, Soderlund K, Hultman E. Department of Medical Sciences, University of Uppsala/LIVI, S-791 88 Falun, Sweden. The rate of muscle glycogen synthesis during 2 and 4 h of recovery after depletion by exercise was studied using two energy equivalent carbohydrate drinks, one containing a polyglucoside with a mean molecular mass of 500 000-700 000 (C drink), and one containing monomers and oligomers of glucose with a mean molecular mass of approximately 500 (G drink). The osmolality was 84 and 350 mosmol. l(-1), respectively. A group of 13 healthy well-trained men ingested the drinks after glycogen depleting exercise, one drink at each test occasion. The total amount of carbohydrates consumed was 300 g (4.2 g. kg(-1)) body mass given as 75 g in 500 ml water immediately after exercise and again 30, 60 ad 90-min post exercise. Blood glucose and insulin concentrations were recorded at rest and every 30 min throughout the 4-h recovery period. Muscle biopsies were obtained at the end of exercise and after 2 and 4 h of recovery. Mean muscle glycogen contents after exercise were 52.9 (superdrol 27.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the C group and 58.3 (SD 35.4) mmol glycosyl units. kg(-1) (dry mass) in the G group. Mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher during the initial 2 h for the C drink compared to the G drink: 50.2 (superdrol 13.7) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C group and 29.9 (SD 12.5) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the G group. During the last 2 h the mean synthesis rate was 18.8 (SD 33.3) and 23.3 (SD 22.4) mmol. kg(-1) (dry mass). h(-1) in the C and G group, respectively (n.s.). Mean blood glucose and insulin concentrations did not differ between the two drinks. Our data indicted that the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of resynthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise. I LOVE waxy maize. I used to use Dextrose and it always bloated me, made me fat, and 30-60 min later gave me a stomach ache. I switched to malto with better results. I then got cheap and did rice cakes or white rice or ww bread w/ honey. All bloat me and make me sick afterward. WMS goes down easy and it helped maintain my pumps. I would literally workout, get my pump, lose the pump, drink my wms and 30-60 min later get another pump. It actually increased my conditioning w/in an hour after drinking it. I used it for my carb up too my last competition and loved it. Right now I'm not using (price - white rice is just cheaper), but I'm thinking of using it 20-40 grams IMMEDIATE postworkout w/ bcaa's, glut, and cee then using my white rice w/ my whey 30-min later. -hossjob i've just started using this and i get a real pumped feeling (in addition to my other supps i am taking - synergistically) than i had prior to using it. no bloat, not gas, and very good energy/mood! - unknown my point was that wms does a lot more than the typical carb. it keeps your muscles fuller way longer than the others. it lets me recovery way better than any other supp. the pump is long lasting and phenominal. 70 g pre or during with 70g post . add 15g citrulline malate pre and you will have the best workouts, pumps and recovery. all of this science you guys are talking about is based on preexisting carb data. wms obviously has different properties than the rest. science wil bear this out at some point. real world results is what im after. you should try wms for awhile instead of conjecturing on something you never used. and being nasty about it to boot. just trying to help. -51502112 if all those studies were accurate and applicable to wms, why when i use it pre workout or intra workout i can increase the weight or add reps i could not otherwise do? why are my muscles fuller for longer and have a tremendous pump with wms as compared with malto/dextrose/oats? why do i not have doms at all compared to when using the beforementioned carb sources.the most important question is why are the pumps and muscle fullness occuring whether i am carb depleted or not? i constantly eat low gi carbs t/o the day, and the wms properties still occur whenever i use it. not as profound as post workout, but still there. regular carbs cant do that. why are my glucose readings minimally effected with wms usage as compared to other carbs? all im saying is we need more research on it. we need to ask different questions. i used to work for abbott doing clinical trials. its easy to mess up a study [ way too many to mention here] if its not set up correctly. you also find groundbreaking properties quite by accident, and you cant even attribute them to a known process. even psychotropic meds are not fully understood as far as how they work. their methods of action are only explained so far. just something to think about. -51502112 Yeah, I second the messy and clumpy as all hell notion. I will say that I feel fuller/harder after and for a good while after my workout. I typically hit weights: drink 50-60 grams Waxy Maise Starch 20 grams BCAAS then do cardio for 30 minutes then take down about 50 grams WPI then 45min - hr later, take down a solid meal containing some slow releasing carbs..thing is for me that I have not been able to get to gym till 7-8 pm,so personally not likeing all the carbs that late, but physique still looking good, so.... -Max32 've been using WMS for the last 3 weeks and I love this stuff!!! My muscles stay fuller longer and I don't stay sore for 2-3 days after a workout. 50-80G PWO followed 20 mins later by 40-60g whey. Here's the way you mix it, warm the water up and use one of the little handheld blenders, I have a Braun and it works like a charm. Otherwise, you end up with some nasty a$$ed tasting wallpaper paste with chunks of wax in it. As for that study, yes, like all of them it was funded by the makers of the product. 300g, WTF? Sounds like a Cell Tech study to me, lol!! Oh yea, one final thought. DON'T PUT IT IN YOUR CAMELBAC, LOL!! I did this during my 2 long races this year and it ruined the bladder in it. I personally feel that this stuff is the reason I won the second 50 mile race. With regular carb sources I was getting bloated and felt like bloody sh!t, not the case with WMS. ROB I love that ****! I take it both pre and post workout and have been having great results with it. I feel fuller and stronger while using it. Definitely much better that malto. -nickw If I'm not storing carbs as fat, I would consider that a benefit in and of itself. Not that I'm any sort of expert, but the theory behind WMS makes sense to me.-nightfly71 I like it for the fact that it results in absolutely ZERO bloat for me. Ive used up to 3 scoops of it PWO and not had any bloating issues at all. It definitely makes me feel fuller as well. For the record, Im starting my own little experiment of sorts next week...not sure how long it is going to run for. - jason pegg __________________ When You Dance With The Devil You Wait For The Song To Stop. Currently HULKING OUT!